Voting as a muslim

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WinstonWolf said:

s1962a said:

WinstonWolf said:

s1962a said:

TTwiggy said:

ChevyChase77 said:

If a woman is allowed in a store with burqa on why is it asked that motorcylists for instance remove their helmet?

Because a helmet is not a religious garment. It's really very simple, and while I'm sure that most of us hope that the Burqua gradually dies out, an enforced removal policy runs contrary to the religious freedom we have in the UK. This is not a secular country in the way that, for instance, France is.

Genuine question for you fellas (or lasses). Have you actually spoken to someone wearing a burka? I've been around muslim people all my life, and whilst i might have seen women covering their face, no one I know, or anyone i've interacted with has done so. So has anyone spoken to someone wearing one?

Yup, frequently. It's a bit of a bugger trying to understand when you're hard of hearing...

Thats fascinating. Where are you meeting these people wearing a face veil?

At work. I wouldn't go so far as fascinating, but it's possibly relevant.

Is it some sort of public services? Whilst I don't think we should be telling women what they can or can't wear, if something like a face veil stops you communicating - say with your doctor or some other public service, then I can see a need request they remove it.

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Brooking10 said:

ChevyChase77 said:

But how do you know they're a Muslim if you don't know who it is because you can't see their face? ;-)

How do you know a Muslim by their face ?

They have a big beard, or wear muslim dress.

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ChevyChase77 said:

Brooking10 said:

ChevyChase77 said:

But how do you know they're a Muslim if you don't know who it is because you can't see their face? ;-)

How do you know a Muslim by their face ?

I didn't say I did.

So how has a person covering their face affected you personally? Mr WinstonWolf gave a great example, and I can totally see the logic in that, but it's difficult to work out what bad experiences you have with people covering their face?

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ChevyChase77 said:

s1962a said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Brooking10 said:

ChevyChase77 said:

But how do you know they're a Muslim if you don't know who it is because you can't see their face? ;-)

How do you know a Muslim by their face ?

I didn't say I did.

So how has a person covering their face affected you personally? Mr WinstonWolf gave a great example, and I can totally see the logic in that, but it's difficult to work out what bad experiences you have with people covering their face?

I honestly don't see why anything has to affect me personally for me to have an opinion about covering faces in public spaces.

You seem very vocal about it, and you have gone to great lengths to pick out face coverings as a topic of discussion. Others have been a bit more honest and talked about the face covering specifically - and I respect them for that - after all this is a discussion topic about anti muslim rhetoric in the tory party.

Whilst we're on the topic, do you have a view on anti muslim and racist stance of some tory and brexit members?

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Mothersruin said:

s1962a said:

TTwiggy said:

ChevyChase77 said:

If a woman is allowed in a store with burqa on why is it asked that motorcylists for instance remove their helmet?

Because a helmet is not a religious garment. It's really very simple, and while I'm sure that most of us hope that the Burqua gradually dies out, an enforced removal policy runs contrary to the religious freedom we have in the UK. This is not a secular country in the way that, for instance, France is.

Genuine question for you fellas (or lasses). Have you actually spoken to someone wearing a burka? I've been around muslim people all my life, and whilst i might have seen women covering their face, no one I know, or anyone i've interacted with has done so. So has anyone spoken to someone wearing one?

Yes - loads - I lived in the Middle East, mainly Dubai, for nigh on 15 years and worked throughout N. Africa, Levant, Arabian Peninsula and Indian SubCon. Family ties to the region (Qatar & Bahrain) go back to the seventies working with senior Government & Royal bods.

Always thought it stupidly amusing that even the dark Abaya & Hijab is worn in such a climate, let alone going full on with face covering, thick black gloves, socks and stockings etc... however, their gaff, their rules - didn't stop me from thinking it was daft, but obviously you couldn't say anything as it's protected - here's an interesting one, what about SE Asians and covering their lower face with a mask to protect you from their germs..?

As I worked a lot with government stuff, I'd be in constant contact with various levels of covering up, dependent on how far down the family expectations/marriage route/husband's rules she was - could become confusing in a large meeting where you hear a voice but can't pin it down or you've been introduced before but you have no idea. I can't remember name badges, I'm really good with faces.

I know there's no outright religious reason for wearing any type of covering, but in that part of the world the culture and religion are one and defining. They perpetuate each other - which is a bad thing in my book.

As I said before, they have the right to wear whatever they want but I have the right, at least in this country, to have my own opinions on that and voice them as I see fit - it's not the only thing I have opinions on, surprisingly. You hold the right to have opinions on what I say, do, wear, drive, etc.. they're all choices and up for scrutiny - you can't have a pop at my looks, sexuality, colour as there's nothing I can do about that. I'll respect the same for you.

Thank you. Huge respect to you for that background and explanation. I'll admit i've hardly ever come across ladies wearing the face veil, so for me it's a consideration about whether we tell women what to wear or not.

You say you have a right to have an opinion on it. What are your views on banning it?

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Down and out said:

What happens at the petrol station if you're a burka wearing motorcyclist?

Like wearing a balaclava under your helmet on a cold day you mean?

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JuanCarlosFandango said:

The security angle is a bit of a red herring. Why not just say you believe it's divisive, oppressive and represents a kind of Islam you don't like? It's not an unreasonable position to take.

Banning it altogether is draconian but I would happily ban it in schools and public buildings and allow private businesses to prohibit them. But for the reasons above, not security.

Agreed on the last bit, and I respect your view, although I disagree with my view that we shouldn't dictate what women wear. I wish others on here wouldn't hide behind some pathetic diversionary tactics. Cheers

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fesuvious said:

No I didn't say that.

However, may I infer that you believe a caliphate would be a terrorist construction / is terrorist ideology?

Personally I agree with you if that is the case.

That brings us to shariah then. Is that a construct of terrorist ideology too?

Question for you:- how do you think the tories can overcome this anti muslim / racist rhetoric they seem to have?

Answers to your questions (from my view):- A 'caliphate' has no place in the UK. I dont believe it exists anywhere in the world does it?

Shariah - what part of it specifically? I wouldn't be happy living under any type of shariah law in the UK. Although I understand you are allowed to get married under islamic rules, as long as you have a civil ceremony as well.

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Boris Johnson says sorry for 'hurt' caused by Tory Islamophobia

Finally. Now get on with rooting this out of your party and get on with the election and brexit.

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Getting back on track about the Conservatives and anti islamic rhetoric. Boris Johnson's apology yesterday is a good start, but his record on this isn't exactly stellar in this regard

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-isla...

I do wonder which is the real Boris?

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Mothersruin said:

s1962a said:

Getting back on track about the Conservatives and anti islamic rhetoric. Boris Johnson's apology yesterday is a good start, but his record on this isn't exactly stellar in this regard

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-isla...

I do wonder which is the real Boris?

OP - you've got to work out what defines you and then go from there.

I think you read my previous posts so you know my position when I started this thread. What I want is for the tories to remove the racist and anti muslim elements from their party - which I believe has no place in politics, but seems to have increased since Brexit. I want my family and people I know not to be subjucated to racist or prejudices, which seem to have increased since the brexit vote. As I mentioned before, I am a tory voter, and do not really want to vote for the car crash that is labour at the moment.

Question for you:- would you vote for a party that has elements in it that has prejudices against your background? wouldn't you try and change that party if it pretty much stood for your values - minus the prejudice and racism?

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wisbech said:

fesuvious said:

Is being a Muslim more important than your race? Or is it the other way around?

Neither. I am English. Which isn't a race, it is a nationality.

I'm English too and proud of my country.

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ChevyChase77 said:

So you're against a party that has elements of prejudice but you're sticking up for a religion that has elements of prejudice?

I thought you had a fetish for face coverings?

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fesuvious said:

Why should haram matter then?

If this person standing has policies and a plan for a better England then his diet doesn't matter.

That this muslim enjoys a bacon sandwich would not have a bearing on their ability to enact party policy nor care for constituents.

Unless you consider that submission to thee will of Allah comes before submission to the demands and requests of voters.

Eh? I'm talking about anti islamic rhetoric in the tory party, and racist attacks since brexit.

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RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

So you're against a party that has elements of prejudice but you're sticking up for a religion that has elements of prejudice?

We're back to the special treatment that religion seeks. If you set up a political movement (which is all any religions are) with the attitudes of any of the world's major religions it would undoubtedly become a banned organisation in pretty short order. Which is why the greatest threat to someone of faith isn't a militant atheist or a few off colour remarks from a politician but their co-religionists.

If you get discriminated against because of your faith, it will almost certainly be by another person of faith. In many instances, it will be by a member that professes the same faith as you.

So you are in agreement then? Racist and prejudice has no place in our mainatram political parties.

Finally some sensible talk.

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RTB said:

s1962a said:

So you are in agreement then? Racist and prejudice has no place in our mainatram political parties.

Finally some sensible talk.

Completely in agreement that prejudice has no place in society, full stop. Given that the mainstream political parties should reflect the values of the people they are hoping to represent then one should follow the other.

Would you agree that prejudice has to be faced no matter the source from which it comes?

Absolutely, yes. No racist attitudes, rhetoric, or violence should be condoned.

I suspect others on PH might not share your view.

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am just amazed this thread has reached 39 pages.

Do you have a view on racism and prejudice within the Conservative party?

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ChevyChase77 said:

s1962a said:

ChevyChase77 said:

So you're against a party that has elements of prejudice but you're sticking up for a religion that has elements of prejudice?

I thought you had a fetish for face coverings?

Surely if I did I'd be sticking up for face coverings like you?

I stick up for not dictating to women (or motorcyclists) what they should wear. Where does your obsession with this topic stem from?

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RTB said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am just amazed this thread has reached 39 pages.

It had a religious word in the title. That's a 50-page minimum

The fine PH community care about these racist attitudes within the tories. Thankfully Boris has now apologised.

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

s1962a said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am just amazed this thread has reached 39 pages.

Do you have a view on racism and prejudice within the Conservative party?

Why are you asking others when it's your decision?

If you don't like a party then don't vote for them.

I’m asking their view on racist attitudes since they are actively participating in this discussion. Nothing to hide is there ?