Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 4)
Discussion
El stovey said:
SpeckledJim said:
If every MP who had voted no confidence in Corbyn had joined, en masse, then the project would likely have worked, IMO.
The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Sure but other MPs who’ve left a party or worse crossed the floor are vilified in the media with reactionaries calling them traitors and getting upset there wasn’t a by-election for their seat. The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Look at the hate soubry and Chuka Umunna get. It’s a pretty unpeasant time for politics and politicians who make a stand about anything.
I expect most hope this is just a temporary phase and the upcoming election disaster will trigger some change at the top?
El stovey said:
SpeckledJim said:
If every MP who had voted no confidence in Corbyn had joined, en masse, then the project would likely have worked, IMO.
The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Sure but other MPs who’ve left a party or worse crossed the floor are vilified in the media with reactionaries calling them traitors and getting upset there wasn’t a by-election for their seat. The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Look at the hate soubry and Chuka Umunna get. It’s a pretty unpeasant time for politics and politicians who make a stand about anything.
I expect most hope this is just a temporary phase and the upcoming election disaster will trigger some change at the top?
If I was a 'normal' Labour MP I'd be very worried at present.
The Labour activists are complaining loudly that the party is putting much more effort into trying to win Tory seats than it is putting into trying to keep their existing ones.
I think that's because, by-and-large, the power in the Labour Party at the moment doesn't care at all if a lot of their current MPs lose their seats.
The easier to replace them with the 'faithful' in due course.
El stovey said:
Change U.K. and whatever party soubry is in haven’t done well neither have the libdems.
It’s pretty hard to start a new party, due to funding and tribal voting. Farage has been successful in the eu elections but he’s single issue and hasn’t ever won a seat in Parliament.
I think they’re waiting to see what happens after brexit/this election. Hopefully after it all settles corbyn/McDonnell/Rayner etc will either get overthrown or a new party might arrive from the ashes.
That might be the case, but Momentum still hold the reins of power within Labour, and so I can't see the party moving back to centre ground any time soon, even if Labour were to take an absolute hammering on Thursday. (which they won't imho) As you correctly say, starting a new party - at least one that survives beyond the initial swell of public support - is very difficult indeed. It’s pretty hard to start a new party, due to funding and tribal voting. Farage has been successful in the eu elections but he’s single issue and hasn’t ever won a seat in Parliament.
I think they’re waiting to see what happens after brexit/this election. Hopefully after it all settles corbyn/McDonnell/Rayner etc will either get overthrown or a new party might arrive from the ashes.
I do despair of the quality of politicians we have these days. Very few of any intellect or with the courage to stand up for what is right. All the parties are crap at the moment. They all lie, they all twist, and they all get outraged when one of the others pulls off a stunt of some kind, only then to repeat their own variation of that stunt themselves shortly after. Not one of them is truly worthy of our votes. I'll certainly be holding my nose on Thursday when I cast my ballot. - and vote I will, because to not vote and then complain about what happens next would be utterly hypocritical (yes SIBI, that's you!)
So my choices are mendacity vs (mendacity + economic oblivion) vs (mendacity + desperation) vs (mendacity + delusional.) In Scotland I'd have an extra choice of (Mendacity + more mendacity + incompetence + bigotry.)
It has been said that we get the politicians we deserve, and I fear that that statement has never been truer than it is today. We are never going to improve our politics until we can attract decent people, from all walks of life, of all political viewpoints to offer themselves up for election. And then we have to be willing to vote for them, even if they don't indulge in the bribery and soundbite fest than characterises election campaigning today.
We have to listen to what people actually say on complex issues, rather than insisting that everything be encapsulated in a short soundbite - soundbites that are all too frequently wilfully misinterpreted by the other side.
We also have to call out the dirty tricks and lies when we see them on ALL sides.
Lastly and perhaps most importantly of all, we need to call out the media, both print, social and broadcast to do its job better.
The media plays a central role in the decline of modern politics imho. What was once a source of information , largely reliable in the eyes of many, is now dumbed down beyond all recognition, fundamentally biased and unable to see anything beyond their own opinions. 21st century media is too keen to speculate and make up the story itself rather than investigate properly and report the facts.
The media has become toxic and corrosive to our democracy and it needs to shape up. Frankly we need to clone Andrew Neil and put him everywhere, in the face of every politician, but in the absence of that, it's surely not to much to ask for a more serious, professional approach, and less silly grandstanding and 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' style questions (yes, that's aimed at you Joe Pike)
Smollet said:
El stovey said:
SpeckledJim said:
If every MP who had voted no confidence in Corbyn had joined, en masse, then the project would likely have worked, IMO.
The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Sure but other MPs who’ve left a party or worse crossed the floor are vilified in the media with reactionaries calling them traitors and getting upset there wasn’t a by-election for their seat. The goodwill for them would have been off-the-charts, IMO, from normal people from both sides of the central dotted-line, who've watched them sit on their hands with growing horror/disgust/shame.
Look at the hate soubry and Chuka Umunna get. It’s a pretty unpeasant time for politics and politicians who make a stand about anything.
I expect most hope this is just a temporary phase and the upcoming election disaster will trigger some change at the top?
Half the time the MPs don't vote in line with the whip anyway so it's hardly a guarantee that you're getting the representative that is in line with your party's values
If this were the case then there wouldn't need to be a by election when an MP changes sides
Also if this was the case rather than people voting for a donkey with their colour rosette, they would get more out of it. It is often said that as just one example, Labour completely take Liverpool for granted and never do anything to help them as they hate the Tories so much there. If an MP with a good local reputation & plan from the 'wrong' tribe could get a look in, then the incumbent would have to work harder for the locals
This is not the fault of the political class but of the electorate being biased, blinkered and stuck in their ways
Although a (hopefully) suicidal lurch to the left in Labour who talk about inclusion but actually preach a deeply hateful and divisive rhetoric, doesn't help either
andymadmak said:
We are never going to improve our politics until we can
educate the population.Who here had any formal teaching about politics while in enforced education? I know I didn't and I don't know anybody who did. Sure some people went on to study it at A-Level and University. But the majority of voters have no idea what the main parties actually stand for or why. And forget economics as well.
We need compulsory politics and economics in Secondary education, and for the general population. You want to register to vote? You pass the test on the fundamental differences between the parties core concepts, and those of the party leaders in this election.
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
andymadmak said:
I do despair of the quality of politicians we have these days. Very few of any intellect or with the courage to stand up for what is right.
Who would be a politician these days? What an utterly miserable job. Pretty much everyone in the country thinks you're a c***, the media exist solely to tear you or your family apart, social media is an utter cesspit of faux outrage and hatred and all for the pay of a low grade accountant. Then we wonder why we have a bunch of second rate clowns standing! 'We' are as much of the problem as the MP's are. Hopefully once Brexit is out of the way, for better or for worse, we can get back to some semblance of good governance and opposition.Munter said:
educate the population.
snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
Interesting point. But surely this is what the media SHOULD be doing - spotting the lies. These TV debates would be so much better if, instead of 'questions from the audience' we had properly researched questions, the answers to which are then immediately fact checked whilst the politician is on air.snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
fblm said:
Who would be a politician these days? What an utterly miserable job. Pretty much everyone in the country thinks you're a c***, the media exist solely to tear you or your family apart, social media is an utter cesspit of faux outrage and hatred and all for the pay of a low grade accountant. Then we wonder why we have a bunch of second rate clowns standing! 'We' are as much of the problem as the MP's are. Hopefully once Brexit is out of the way, for better or for worse, we can get back to some semblance of good governance and opposition.
Another fair point, well madeandymadmak said:
Munter said:
educate the population.
snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
Interesting point. But surely this is what the media SHOULD be doing - spotting the lies. These TV debates would be so much better if, instead of 'questions from the audience' we had properly researched questions, the answers to which are then immediately fact checked whilst the politician is on air.snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
But the people have moved on by then and don't care. And don't have a reason to care. It either supported their viewpoint, or hardened their resolve against the opposition, and they moved on. They have no cause to return and find out what was or wasn't actually a true and/or fair representation of a situation.
fblm said:
Munter said:
We need compulsory politics and economics in Secondary education...
I agree with that although I'd prioritise economics and finance. Should be able to figure out the politics from there...Munter said:
andymadmak said:
Munter said:
educate the population.
snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
Interesting point. But surely this is what the media SHOULD be doing - spotting the lies. These TV debates would be so much better if, instead of 'questions from the audience' we had properly researched questions, the answers to which are then immediately fact checked whilst the politician is on air.snip
Until people understand what they are actually voting for, it's the most convincing liar wins. Because if you don't lie, the opponent will, and the voters don't know enough to spot it.
But the people have moved on by then and don't care. And don't have a reason to care. It either supported their viewpoint, or hardened their resolve against the opposition, and they moved on. They have no cause to return and find out what was or wasn't actually a true and/or fair representation of a situation.
Here is the full Ashworth tape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI
Quite astonishing when listened to in full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI
Quite astonishing when listened to in full
Camoradi said:
The Ashworth telephone call is quite sinister really. First we have Labour in possession of leaked government documents which may have passed through the hands of the Russians, and now we find the shadow health secretary appears to have Darth Vader on speed dial.
Just to be clear, do you think the Death Star is controlling the Russians?Digga said:
Camoradi said:
The Ashworth telephone call is quite sinister really. First we have Labour in possession of leaked government documents which may have passed through the hands of the Russians, and now we find the shadow health secretary appears to have Darth Vader on speed dial.
Just to be clear, do you think the Death Star is controlling the Russians?
jonby said:
Here is the full Ashworth tape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI
Quite astonishing when listened to in full
The only people who will believe it is 'banter' or 'joshing' are those who do not listen to the tape - which to be fair will be quite a lothttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FIrFGFAzQI
Quite astonishing when listened to in full
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