The cost of medicines in the USA and here
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
The Moose said:
Derek Smith said:
The Moose said:
Derek Smith said:
However, it is illegal in the US for people to cross the border and import the cheaper drugs.
I don’t know if it’s illegal for a person to physically cross the border and bring in drugs from Canada, but it’s certainly not illegal to have them shipped to you!The implication, which is often in the CR, is that vested interests stop senators actually doing anything useful for the electorate.
A small point; as you know, the fact that people do it doesn't make it legal. I remember that they suggested that it is not high on the FBI's to do list. However, a lot of online drugs that are sold from Canada are sourced from those countries with a history of counterfeiting. Again the actual figure escapes me but I think they suggested 25m Americans took the risk. There are some exceptions I understand, or read online. If you've got a condition where there is no appropriate drug sold in the states, that sort of thing.
There was a strong suggestion that 'middle men' are responsible for some of the price increases. The anti-bribery legislation that applies to other businesses does not apply with regards to drugs. Anti-bribery is not the wording but that's what it seems to be.
I dig it out over the weekend and if I'm saying tosh I'll correct it. But it's more or less correct.
EDITED TO ADD: kick-back, that's the term used in the legislation.
Edited by Derek Smith on Thursday 5th December 23:01
bloomen said:
Sheepshanks said:
That said, he thinks their health care system is far better than ours, and I've heard that a few times from Americans who think our health care system is pretty backward.
Rather like guns, it's a subject that's totally pointless to discuss with Americans. It's like arguing about the colour of the sky. If they want it then best of luck to 'em. Glad I'm not one of them. My medical insurance costs less than my old N.I. contributions.
The standard of care is better than you can imagine if you're used to the NHS.
I know it's not the same (slightly OT regarding the cost of drugs bit) but we moved back to the UK after 15 years in France where healthcare is only partially funded and you pay extra for drugs if you don't have insurance and from my current experience I'd rather pay for my healthcare as I've found the NHS where we are is errm, not very good. In France my diabetes checkups were every 12 weeks and here my GP says I can only have a HbA1C blood test once a year and an annual visit to the diabetic clinic, when I asked why the GP just shrugged and said it is what it is and it ain't going to get better. Looks like we'll have to go private..
bloomen said:
HD Adam said:
for me.
That's the key though isn't it. It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
You're free to do f
k all if you want...but there's less help when it goes tits up.The Moose said:
bloomen said:
HD Adam said:
for me.
That's the key though isn't it. It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
You're free to do f
k all if you want...but there's less help when it goes tits up.Remote Area Medical from a quick search is the charity.
Not sure this was the documentary I saw but it stuck out for the numbers without cover.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-health-care-gets-b...
Not sure how 11 years ago is now in faring in the US today with regards pop up clinics and that this is all correctly recorded at the time?
Meanwhile, back in Gotham.
Last Jan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Lz9wB21L4&fe...
US-UK Hearing 1-29-19 (Panel 5)
The panel is wide ranging but includes drugs and patents, also covers digital rights among other things but that is going OT (I Think that one will bite us as well). They don't say anything about the UK saying anything is off the table but everything about what they want. How good is our position and how good are our negotiators?
The Moose said:
I'm curious either way - I'm the first to admit I don't know everything about the system here! I didn't think it would be legal due to potential FDA issues if anything. I'll ask my buddy for more details the next time I see him.
I've just flicked through the magazine. Lots and lots of data, charts and figures so I have a bit of an excuse for being way off in one of mine in my post. It's 3.5 million Americans who run the gauntlet of the legislation to get their meds from Canada.Americans pay a lot more for drugs than we do, that is a fact. My Daughter needed to see a Dr in the US as she got an ear infection diving.
To see the local Dr was over $150 and some basic antibiotics were around $50. this did not work so we saw an ENT specialist, bizarrely only $40, they wanted to give her a different type of Antibiotic, "do you want the cheap one of the expensive one"?
We went for the expensive one which was $150. My daughter is a Dr in the NHS, so she looked up the drug, in the UK the NHS pays £6 for that drug from the same US company.
The reason is simple, the NHS negotiated for a whole country, over there it is each medical company individually. On top of that there are some legal issues which Trump is trying to steer around but getting blocked.
If you are wealthy, or work for the government over there your health care is fantastic, less so if on insurance. Need critical care and you are seriously at risk of having nothing left if you survive.
Yes there is medicare as a fail safe but limited. Also Publix super market supply basic drugs prescribed free to anyone who goes in there with a prescription, we used this when I needed some on a trip there.
The NHS has some issues but I will support it as people should not have to chose to live or die on there ability to pay. I will also support efforts to cut out waste and freeloading by people from abroad abusing our system
To see the local Dr was over $150 and some basic antibiotics were around $50. this did not work so we saw an ENT specialist, bizarrely only $40, they wanted to give her a different type of Antibiotic, "do you want the cheap one of the expensive one"?
We went for the expensive one which was $150. My daughter is a Dr in the NHS, so she looked up the drug, in the UK the NHS pays £6 for that drug from the same US company.
The reason is simple, the NHS negotiated for a whole country, over there it is each medical company individually. On top of that there are some legal issues which Trump is trying to steer around but getting blocked.
If you are wealthy, or work for the government over there your health care is fantastic, less so if on insurance. Need critical care and you are seriously at risk of having nothing left if you survive.
Yes there is medicare as a fail safe but limited. Also Publix super market supply basic drugs prescribed free to anyone who goes in there with a prescription, we used this when I needed some on a trip there.
The NHS has some issues but I will support it as people should not have to chose to live or die on there ability to pay. I will also support efforts to cut out waste and freeloading by people from abroad abusing our system
I think one thing that muddies the waters when discussing healthcare costs is that the "headline" figures for costs aren't necessarily what's being paid. That's not to say it's "good", but my understanding is it goes something like this:
Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
I've often thought about this sort of thing, and I wonder if it isn't two sides of the same coin with the US. One thing they seem to be better at is the idea that if you're successful, good for you, you earned it, crack on. Good example to others. Your success is your own.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
jamoor said:
bloomen said:
That's the key though isn't it.
It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
That’s the American mentality though?It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
InitialDave said:
I think one thing that muddies the waters when discussing healthcare costs is that the "headline" figures for costs aren't necessarily what's being paid. That's not to say it's "good", but my understanding is it goes something like this:
Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
I've often thought about this sort of thing, and I wonder if it isn't two sides of the same coin with the US. One thing they seem to be better at is the idea that if you're successful, good for you, you earned it, crack on. Good example to others. Your success is your own.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
Your point is covered in the Consumer Report. There's too much to put on here, but it is clearly not that great for those who have to buy their own drugs. It is not that great for the insurance companies, although it would appear they don't really care all that much, and not that great for some hospitals. It would appear that savings made by some on purchase are not passed on. Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
jamoor said:
bloomen said:
That's the key though isn't it.
It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
That’s the American mentality though?It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
It's complicated and not the system we use here - at the moment. It is of concern though.
Carl_Manchester said:
The short answer is that drug prices in the USA are astronomical and they are astronomical, ironically because the USA market is rigged internally. If Trump can open a path to foreign companies selling their drugs internally within the US market, it will be a big win for him.
The Trump administration has been trying to do this since election however, the big pharma lobby in the USA is strong.
USA is basically ran by lobby groups though, from accountants to guns to drugs, you can't beat the lobby groups. I started a thread a while back by some bloke who wanted to actually ratchet up the cost of drugs. Because it's about obscene profits, not just profit.The Trump administration has been trying to do this since election however, the big pharma lobby in the USA is strong.
HD Adam said:
bloomen said:
Sheepshanks said:
That said, he thinks their health care system is far better than ours, and I've heard that a few times from Americans who think our health care system is pretty backward.
Rather like guns, it's a subject that's totally pointless to discuss with Americans. It's like arguing about the colour of the sky. If they want it then best of luck to 'em. Glad I'm not one of them. My medical insurance costs less than my old N.I. contributions.
The standard of care is better than you can imagine if you're used to the NHS.
Just returned from visiting my Daughter and family near Iowa. We were chatting about health costs. She pays for her husband, daughter (9) and herself $12,000 per annum plus her employer contributes a further $5,000 pa. They’re healthy and no illness issues. My son in laws parents, in their 70s pay $16,000 each
That doesn’t sound particularly cheap to me but does seem to align with published data the USA health costs are about 2.5 - 3 times those of the UK. Albeit the service is better for those that can afford it.
It was interesting to see hospitals and other medical research facilities linked to the Universities.
Edited by Nickgnome on Friday 6th December 12:21
HD Adam said:
bloomen said:
Sheepshanks said:
That said, he thinks their health care system is far better than ours, and I've heard that a few times from Americans who think our health care system is pretty backward.
Rather like guns, it's a subject that's totally pointless to discuss with Americans. It's like arguing about the colour of the sky. If they want it then best of luck to 'em. Glad I'm not one of them. My medical insurance costs less than my old N.I. contributions.
The standard of care is better than you can imagine if you're used to the NHS.
Just returned from visiting my Daughter and family near Iowa. We were chatting about health costs. She pays for her husband, daughter (9) and herself $12,000 per annum plus her employer contributes a further $5,000 pa. They’re healthy and no illness issues. My son in laws parents, in their 70s pay $16,000 each
That doesn’t sound particularly cheap to me but does seem to align with published data the USA health costs are about 2.5 - 3 times those of the UK. Albeit the service is better for those that can afford it.
It was interesting to see hospitals and other medical research facilities linked to the Universities.
Edited by Nickgnome on Friday 6th December 12:34
kev1974 said:
rscott said:
In the US the cost can vary massively, depending on whether you have the brand name drug prescribed or a generic equivalent.
Albuterol (US name for salbutamol) can be anything from $0.40 to $12.10 for 10 nebuliser doses, depending on the brand name ( https://health.costhelper.com/albuterol-inhaler.ht... ).
Some pharmacists will dispense a generic when a branded version is prescribed, some won't.
It's just the same here, both with stuff you can buy yourself like anti-histamines for hayfever, or aspirin, or paracetamol, where the unbranded generic is pennies but the brand with all the marketing and tv adverts eg. Nurofen is £££. And with stuff you have to go get a prescription for, an example that comes to mind is the malaria tablets I've had a few times, my pharmacist said if you want the branded one (e.g. Malarone) it will cost £££££ but if I give you this generic but identical one (atovaquone/proguanil hydrochloride) it will be only £££. Some pharmacists won't give you the choice though, if the doctor or nurse has specifically written Malarone then that's all the less helpful pharmacists will dispense, for £££££.Albuterol (US name for salbutamol) can be anything from $0.40 to $12.10 for 10 nebuliser doses, depending on the brand name ( https://health.costhelper.com/albuterol-inhaler.ht... ).
Some pharmacists will dispense a generic when a branded version is prescribed, some won't.
If a private prescription for a brand is presented then the pharmacist should dispense the brand, but in the case of Malarone above the "more helpful" pharmacist was obviously prepared to go out on a limb, which is ok until he dispenses a generic and the patient catches Malaria. This may or may not have anything to do with the medication, but he'd still end up in hot water with the regulator and his professional indemnity insurance.
emperorburger said:
Yes, there are generics available at lower cost but in the case of salbutamol inhalers it's not so much about the active ingredients (which are the same), but the delivery of the drug itself via the inhaler, which has caused many patients to insist on being given a Ventolin rather than a generic equivalent.
I had two health centre based pharmacies from 86-03 and one from 03-14, GSK offered a deal with extra discount on Ventolin inhalers which brought them down to the generic price which saved a lot of aggro.Patients can't actually "insist" on being given a brand/make of generic, although some say that they can 'only' take a particular brand. Teva brand generics are very popular, people insisting on these are known as 'Teva Divas'
One women said she could only take "local" omeprazole which puzzled me until I realised Actavis brand had a Barnstaple address on the packet.
InitialDave said:
I think one thing that muddies the waters when discussing healthcare costs is that the "headline" figures for costs aren't necessarily what's being paid. That's not to say it's "good", but my understanding is it goes something like this:
Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
I've often thought about this sort of thing, and I wonder if it isn't two sides of the same coin with the US. One thing they seem to be better at is the idea that if you're successful, good for you, you earned it, crack on. Good example to others. Your success is your own.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
It very much is a privilige for those that can afford it, luckily here it's a right that can't be taken away from you.Provider: "Hello, end user! We hope you feel better after [minor procedure]. Not sure how you got ill, though, normally only sheep get that. Anyway, here's your bill for $20k."
End User: "Christ on a bike, glad I'm insured! Here you go, insurance company..."
Insurance company: "Certainly sir, we'll sort that out for you."
Insurance company: "Hey, Provider, you've given our client a bill for [simple procedure] which we'd like to settle with you."
Provider: "Yes, that will be $20k, please."
Insurance company: "Yeah, about that. We're thinking you can have $3k and you can bloody like it."
Provider: "Fair point, well made, $3k it is, as long as you don't tell the end user."
jamoor said:
bloomen said:
That's the key though isn't it.
It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
That’s the American mentality though?It's great for some. For others it'll be their undoing.
But if you're very unsuccessful, and life goes badly, there's a bit of an undercurrent that that's all on you, too...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
"Ex-hedge funder buys rights to AIDS drug and raises price"
"Ex-hedge funder buys rights to AIDS drug and raises price"
Halb said:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
"Ex-hedge funder buys rights to AIDS drug and raises price"
Hes in jail now though."Ex-hedge funder buys rights to AIDS drug and raises price"
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff