Yuri Bezmenov - Western Destabilisation - early 80s
Discussion
Mothersruin said:
Both, neither, perhaps. I don't want this to focus on Brexit. It's a recent development influenced to some degree during a very long term strategy. It's a small part in a much bigger picture,
Brexit is only part of it. As is Trump.Getting rid of both is part of the answer, as is rejecting hard left ideaologies which I detect you want to focus upon.
Would you agree reversing brexit and getting a president not like Trump is part of the answer?
Reminds me of thse videos I posted a while back.
this one talks of sowing discord in usa
The Insane Russian Plan to Conquer the World
RealLifeLore
https://youtu.be/Q9MSV9Bp35Y
Two of england's finest satirists chew the fat for 50 odd minutes. THere is a bit in the middle on russian bots too.
Stewart Lee in Conversation with Alan Moore
faberandfaber
https://youtu.be/iytGHs4Nga0
this one talks of sowing discord in usa
The Insane Russian Plan to Conquer the World
RealLifeLore
https://youtu.be/Q9MSV9Bp35Y
Two of england's finest satirists chew the fat for 50 odd minutes. THere is a bit in the middle on russian bots too.
Stewart Lee in Conversation with Alan Moore
faberandfaber
https://youtu.be/iytGHs4Nga0
Mothersruin said:
Both, neither, perhaps. I don't want this to focus on Brexit. It's a recent development influenced to some degree during a very long term strategy. It's a small part in a much bigger picture,
Respectfully if there is a Russian agenda I think you have to focus on it proportionately.Brexit is one of the biggest political events if not the biggest political event of our lifetimes.
If Russia tried to influence the referendum and the UK leaving the EU that's completely relevant.
I don't think you can expect to focus on just the "Socialist/Left/SJW aspect".
Mothersruin said:
Brexit? That's one drum to bang I suppose, however, Brexit is a symptom, not a cause.
I think someone has only got one drum. I doubt Russia was influential in the neverendum, or the US election, but some will claim they see it everywhere. We need to remember that America will want to weaken Europe just as much as Russia does...
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Respectfully if there is a Russian agenda I think you have to focus on it proportionately.
Brexit is one of the biggest political events if not the biggest political event of our lifetimes.
If Russia tried to influence the referendum and the UK leaving the EU that's completely relevant.
I don't think you can expect to focus on just the "Socialist/Left/SJW aspect".
Fascinating how some want to fear monger about russia and e.g. corbyn, and yet will ignore the obvious links to you-know-what. Brexit is one of the biggest political events if not the biggest political event of our lifetimes.
If Russia tried to influence the referendum and the UK leaving the EU that's completely relevant.
I don't think you can expect to focus on just the "Socialist/Left/SJW aspect".
It's almost weird. I assume you and I can see links to both, yet some are completely blind when it might be seen to blight their precious prize - even to the point of posting about "western destabilisation" and thinking something like you-know-what is somehow unrelated.
Oakey said:
So what is your solution? Reverse Brexit and never have an election again "just in case"?
No because life doesn't work that way.But equally don't bury your head in the sand and pretend that it couldn't possibly have been an influence whilst at the same time unquestionably accepting Russian meddling in all kinds of other things especially if they have a "Socialist/Left/SJW aspect".
Ask yourself what might be in the suppressed report into Russian interference in UK politics and ask yourself why it hasn't been released.
Ask yourself why Russian money comes into any UK political party.
None of that is saying "Reverse Brexit and never have an election again" it's simply saying don't ignore things because they're politically inconvenient for you.
DeepEnd said:
Fascinating how some want to fear monger about russia and e.g. corbyn, and yet will ignore the obvious links to you-know-what.
It's almost weird. I assume you and I can see links to both, yet some are completely blind when it might be seen to blight their precious prize - even to the point of posting about "western destabilisation" and thinking something like you-know-what is somehow unrelated.
I could understand it if you or I were suggesting we're leaving the EU because of Russian involvement.It's almost weird. I assume you and I can see links to both, yet some are completely blind when it might be seen to blight their precious prize - even to the point of posting about "western destabilisation" and thinking something like you-know-what is somehow unrelated.
We seem to live in a weird binary post-referendum world where either something caused something or it didn't and it's all or nothing.
The nuance of someone may have tried to do something and they may have had some limited impact seems to get lost on some people.
Oakey said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geo...
Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook advocates a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[9]
The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[9]
In Europe:
Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]
Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[9]
As an insight into a certain nationalist mind set it’s useful. As a playbook less so, for example some of it reads as a, detached from reality, Diplomacy/Risk playbook:Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook advocates a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[9]
The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[9]
In Europe:
Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]
Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[9]
“China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.[9]
mongolia should be absorbed into Eurasia-Russia.[9]”
Good luck to with all that nonsense.
Ridgemont said:
As an insight into a certain nationalist mind set it’s useful. As a playbook less so, for example some of it reads as a, detached from reality, Diplomacy/Risk playbook:
Aye. I think people are waaay too quick to pin their ills on a shadowy boogeyman. It's a tad more nuanced than laying out what you'd rather like strangers in a far off land to do and then having them smoothly complying.And no doubt many of our own institutions attempt to do the exact same thing or worse to us lot and probably have a better idea how to do it.
That search for a simplistic and hysterical trigger is symptomatic of our times.
DeepEnd said:
Fascinating how some want to fear monger about russia and e.g. corbyn, and yet will ignore the obvious links to you-know-what.
It's almost weird. I assume you and I can see links to both, yet some are completely blind when it might be seen to blight their precious prize - even to the point of posting about "western destabilisation" and thinking something like you-know-what is somehow unrelated.
you knowwhat?It's almost weird. I assume you and I can see links to both, yet some are completely blind when it might be seen to blight their precious prize - even to the point of posting about "western destabilisation" and thinking something like you-know-what is somehow unrelated.
Necessity of the mother of invention.
Russia doesn't have the cash to run another cold war, so I wouldn't be surprised of they back every single crackpot idea and non crackpot idea in the UK and other places....like China...like the USA...like the UK...
bloomen said:
Aye. I think people are waaay too quick to pin their ills on a shadowy boogeyman. It's a tad more nuanced than laying out what you'd rather like strangers in a far off land to do and then having them smoothly complying.
And no doubt many of our own institutions attempt to do the exact same thing or worse to us lot and probably have a better idea how to do it.
That search for a simplistic and hysterical trigger is symptomatic of our times.
"shadowy boogeyman" -- you don't think foreign states are up to some nefarious sAnd no doubt many of our own institutions attempt to do the exact same thing or worse to us lot and probably have a better idea how to do it.
That search for a simplistic and hysterical trigger is symptomatic of our times.
t? Have you seen what's supposedly going on in Australia?BBC said:
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison says allegations of a plot to plant a Chinese spy in Canberra's parliament are "deeply disturbing".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-50541082NYTimes said:
CANBERRA, Australia — A Chinese defector to Australia who detailed political interference by Beijing. A businessman found dead after telling the authorities about a Chinese plot to install him in Parliament. Suspicious men following critics of Beijing in major Australian cities.
Fears of Chinese interference once seemed to hover indistinctly over Australia. Now, Beijing’s political ambitions, and the espionage operations that further them, suddenly feel local, concrete and ever-present.
“It’s become the inescapable issue,” said Hugh White, a former intelligence official who teaches strategic studies at the Australian National University. “We’ve underestimated how quickly China’s power has grown along with its ambition to use that power.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/28/world/australia/china-spying-wang-liqiang-nick-zhao.htmlFears of Chinese interference once seemed to hover indistinctly over Australia. Now, Beijing’s political ambitions, and the espionage operations that further them, suddenly feel local, concrete and ever-present.
“It’s become the inescapable issue,” said Hugh White, a former intelligence official who teaches strategic studies at the Australian National University. “We’ve underestimated how quickly China’s power has grown along with its ambition to use that power.”
Oakey said:
"shadowy boogeyman" -- you don't think foreign states are up to some nefarious st? Have you seen what's supposedly going on in Australia?
Of course. It's been going on since humans divided into different groups and it'll always carry on. Our lot are doing it just as much as their lot no doubt. t? Have you seen what's supposedly going on in Australia?But in this particular case the average Youtube commenter is seizing on these vids as the evidence of an entire society's warping with no acknowledgment of the perpetrator being anyone or anything else. The world is a bit more complex.
Edited by bloomen on Saturday 7th December 19:17
Without quoting everyone - Brexit/Trump - stopping both would only create other issues. It's like flood defences. Build them in one place, it'll just happen further downstream.
I'm not knee jerking on this - as said, I've known about this particular guy for a long time and have used the vid for a while now.
I'm also under no illusion that interference is blind to our party politics. Anything will & can be used.
I noted the SJ element as it's specifically mentioned in the clip.
It's hugely complex - hence always having to deal with unforeseen consequences down the line.
I'm not knee jerking on this - as said, I've known about this particular guy for a long time and have used the vid for a while now.
I'm also under no illusion that interference is blind to our party politics. Anything will & can be used.
I noted the SJ element as it's specifically mentioned in the clip.
It's hugely complex - hence always having to deal with unforeseen consequences down the line.
To expand on the foundations of geopolitics:
The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.
Ukraine should be annexed by Russia
Continental Russia-Islamic alliance.
Georgia should be dismembered.
China represents the biggest threat so Russia should offer China help in a southern direction
Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics"
Latest developments to China's "south".
China signs defense (sic) agreement with South Korea as U.S. angers Seoul with demand for $5 billion troop payment/
https://news.yahoo.com/china-signs-defense-agreeme...
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article...
Washington (i.e. Trump) asked Tokyo to pay five times as much per year for U.S. forces based in Japan
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/11/16/natio...
The real question I've got here, is what the fk are MI5/6 and CIA doing? As there are only two possible explanations. They have either been caught sitting on the stter reading rupert the fking bear, whilst Gosudarstvenny Gimn Rossiyskoy Federatsii blares over the tannoy. Or they are complicit in this clusterfk.
The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.
Ukraine should be annexed by Russia
Continental Russia-Islamic alliance.
Georgia should be dismembered.
China represents the biggest threat so Russia should offer China help in a southern direction
Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics"
Latest developments to China's "south".
China signs defense (sic) agreement with South Korea as U.S. angers Seoul with demand for $5 billion troop payment/
https://news.yahoo.com/china-signs-defense-agreeme...
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article...
Washington (i.e. Trump) asked Tokyo to pay five times as much per year for U.S. forces based in Japan
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/11/16/natio...
The real question I've got here, is what the f
k are MI5/6 and CIA doing? As there are only two possible explanations. They have either been caught sitting on the stter reading rupert the fking bear, whilst Gosudarstvenny Gimn Rossiyskoy Federatsii blares over the tannoy. Or they are complicit in this clusterfk. Edited by zb on Saturday 7th December 23:30
They filled schools universities and the media with commies churning out limp wristed mealy mouthed NPCs who vote for polices that destroy social cohesion,family values, destroy the economy and who think we shouldn’t give draconian sentences to terrorists.
They won the Cold War, but they are playing the long game
They’ve created whole generations of people who hate their own kind and the media constantly push it and most soak it up.
They won the Cold War, but they are playing the long game
They’ve created whole generations of people who hate their own kind and the media constantly push it and most soak it up.
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