So what now for the Labour party?
Discussion
Hoofy said:
They need to bin the extreme left (most of the party).
But isn’t any policy of a centrist new Labour Party going to be similar to the conservatives spending and environmental pledges? Boris has done a Tony Blair and kept his core voters happy and taken over the middle. Plus killed off Farage,
Obviously if the conservatives spending pledges don’t materialise or they mess up brexit, then there’s a way in for new new labour but otherwise I can't see a way back for a long time.
Corbyn was pretty much as far left as traditional politics gets. If Labour want any chance of getting anywhere near a representative amount of MPs, in the next decade, they’ll need to move a fair bit to the right, from where they are at present, and possibly make sure that any of their most prominent MPs know how to dress themselves properly, before having a photo taken.
I can’t see momentum handing over the Labour NEC easily, it Kinnock years to face down the the Hard Left. If a moderate centrist Labour Party emerges from this wreckage I will be amazed. The bitter infighting is really going to start now.
Pretty much every ex Labour MP that defected lost their seat, and in reality most of the moderates (Tom Watson) etc stepped down.
The real surprise here is that the Lib Dems failed so spectacularly to mop up disaffected Labour supporters.
Liberals have a real chance to over take Labour, if they can get over their Brexit / referendum obsession and find a decent leader. More Ashdown than Swinson.
egor110 said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Traditional aspirational blue collar Labour voters didn't like being taken for granted, felt their 'respect the referendum' Labour Party of 2017 had deserted them. Corbyn sitting on the fence, and Boris shouting from the roof that he will 'Get Brexit Done' have had a lot of northern Labour voters either holding their nose and voting blue, or voting Brexit Party and destroying the core support for Labour.
I find it amazing that a) JC didn't graciously acknowledge defeat and congratulate Boris in his speach to his supporters as is traditional. b) Has only said he won't lead Labour into another GE - which is five years away. He should step down immediately if he had any backbone and put party before ego. I suspect though, that he will try to ride it out saying the CLP love him.
If the Labour Party want to rebuild from this, then they need to ditch Corbynomics and return to moderate Social Democratic Labour policies rather than hard left borderline Communism. You can offer everyone everything free and tell them a few rich people are going to pay, but their core support aren't stupid. They need someone like Jess whatshername or Rebecca Double Barrelled to take over a much more moderate party. Especially since the centre ground has disappeared under Swanson Swinson's bus.
Watching bbc news all morning and they seem to still think it's nothing to do with there left wing stance and all to do with brexit !I find it amazing that a) JC didn't graciously acknowledge defeat and congratulate Boris in his speach to his supporters as is traditional. b) Has only said he won't lead Labour into another GE - which is five years away. He should step down immediately if he had any backbone and put party before ego. I suspect though, that he will try to ride it out saying the CLP love him.
If the Labour Party want to rebuild from this, then they need to ditch Corbynomics and return to moderate Social Democratic Labour policies rather than hard left borderline Communism. You can offer everyone everything free and tell them a few rich people are going to pay, but their core support aren't stupid. They need someone like Jess whatshername or Rebecca Double Barrelled to take over a much more moderate party. Especially since the centre ground has disappeared under Swanson Swinson's bus.
If the party won't change then hopefully the more centralist mp's will go lib dem in 5 years time .
Labour faces a choice - retain Corbynomics or return to the centre, but there are two key issues at play here.
Firstly, the grip that Momentum, the annual Conference and the NEC have on the party. These people, Momentum especially, are convinced that they are correct; if anything they'll argue for "proper" Socialism, and will trample anyone that gets in their way. They will say "people liked our manifesto but Brexit got in the way. Next time Brexit will be history, so lets keep our manifesto content as it is".
Secondly, if they try to return to the centre, they'll find the Tory party already occupy it. Those who label the Tories as right wing are mistaken; policies such as their proposed public sector funding, social house building and Ozzie-style immigration are not right wing.
So my guess is that Labour will dump Corbyn and continue to pursue their Socialist agenda. Will it work? Time will tell.
Firstly, the grip that Momentum, the annual Conference and the NEC have on the party. These people, Momentum especially, are convinced that they are correct; if anything they'll argue for "proper" Socialism, and will trample anyone that gets in their way. They will say "people liked our manifesto but Brexit got in the way. Next time Brexit will be history, so lets keep our manifesto content as it is".
Secondly, if they try to return to the centre, they'll find the Tory party already occupy it. Those who label the Tories as right wing are mistaken; policies such as their proposed public sector funding, social house building and Ozzie-style immigration are not right wing.
So my guess is that Labour will dump Corbyn and continue to pursue their Socialist agenda. Will it work? Time will tell.
Tyre Smoke said:
TorqueVR said:
If Boris goes full term Tony Blair would have been the only Labour PM in 50 years. Maybe the party might take that on board and think about what direction to take.
I think you might have that wrong.Correction - Callaghan didn't win a general election - it was Harold Wilson in 1974 and outside the timeframe, assuming Boris stays in to 2025.
Edited by alangla on Friday 13th December 11:10
The Momentum talking heads last night kept saying that their policies were extremely popular, Brexit was the issue.
For the time being, they're going to double-down on this. Unless there is someone strong, with solid support, willing to go to war and fight for control, then the Brown Shirts will keep sniping and beating down dissenters.
We need a decent opposition, we need it now.
For the time being, they're going to double-down on this. Unless there is someone strong, with solid support, willing to go to war and fight for control, then the Brown Shirts will keep sniping and beating down dissenters.
We need a decent opposition, we need it now.
OP - I think a split will have to take place.
Judging by the responses from the hard left momentum section within the party, they are not accepting there is any fundamental problem with Corbyn or their hard left ideology or manifesto.
Their response early on was that they would likely aim for "shorter snappier" manifestoes (of course to match the attention span of their target base), so that the ideology can be focussed more.
They still seem oblivious that it is a fundamental problem with their hard left ideology and as such still see any movement from that position as "fascist" or "far right".
So I would expect the party needs to split from its extremists and re-build from there.
Judging by the responses from the hard left momentum section within the party, they are not accepting there is any fundamental problem with Corbyn or their hard left ideology or manifesto.
Their response early on was that they would likely aim for "shorter snappier" manifestoes (of course to match the attention span of their target base), so that the ideology can be focussed more.
They still seem oblivious that it is a fundamental problem with their hard left ideology and as such still see any movement from that position as "fascist" or "far right".
So I would expect the party needs to split from its extremists and re-build from there.
They need to appeal to the 96% of people who are not hung up on identity politics, open borders, trans rights and the other obsessions of the comfortably well-off metropolitan Leftish voter. They pretend to care but it's all about the maintenance of their personal myth - virtue signalling which is a massive turn-off. Most people dont give a flying f*** for any of this stuff nor Palestine (which no-one in the Middle East gives a fig about), Venezuela or any of the other weird obsessions that most people will only give time to after attending to the basic day-to-day stuff of living. The Labour Party puts the window dressing ahead of the foundations.
As I said on here at the time he was elected leader, this country was never going to elect as PM a man who wouldn't sing the National Anthem. And who kept Diana Abbot so close to a possible role in Government.
What next? Who did they keep away from the spotlight - Keir Starmer; he does at least have the air of someone who could be a PM which is important in most people's eyes. But if they shovel in one of those chippy northern women (or men but we only seem to hear from Rayner and Long-Bailey) they have no chance.
As I said on here at the time he was elected leader, this country was never going to elect as PM a man who wouldn't sing the National Anthem. And who kept Diana Abbot so close to a possible role in Government.
What next? Who did they keep away from the spotlight - Keir Starmer; he does at least have the air of someone who could be a PM which is important in most people's eyes. But if they shovel in one of those chippy northern women (or men but we only seem to hear from Rayner and Long-Bailey) they have no chance.
Brave Fart said:
Labour faces a choice - retain Corbynomics or return to the centre, but there are two key issues at play here.
Firstly, the grip that Momentum, the annual Conference and the NEC have on the party. These people, Momentum especially, are convinced that they are correct; if anything they'll argue for "proper" Socialism, and will trample anyone that gets in their way. They will say "people liked our manifesto but Brexit got in the way. Next time Brexit will be history, so lets keep our manifesto content as it is".
Secondly, if they try to return to the centre, they'll find the Tory party already occupy it. Those who label the Tories as right wing are mistaken; policies such as their proposed public sector funding, social house building and Ozzie-style immigration are not right wing.
So my guess is that Labour will dump Corbyn and continue to pursue their Socialist agenda. Will it work? Time will tell.
This is exactly the pointFirstly, the grip that Momentum, the annual Conference and the NEC have on the party. These people, Momentum especially, are convinced that they are correct; if anything they'll argue for "proper" Socialism, and will trample anyone that gets in their way. They will say "people liked our manifesto but Brexit got in the way. Next time Brexit will be history, so lets keep our manifesto content as it is".
Secondly, if they try to return to the centre, they'll find the Tory party already occupy it. Those who label the Tories as right wing are mistaken; policies such as their proposed public sector funding, social house building and Ozzie-style immigration are not right wing.
So my guess is that Labour will dump Corbyn and continue to pursue their Socialist agenda. Will it work? Time will tell.
In modern times in England (i'm using that term deliberately, given how the landscape is so different in Scotland, Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales), we have had labour and conservatives fight out every election, with one party taking the centre ground and the other shoved out wide
The only time Labour have taken the centre ground, under Blair, they dominated politics. At all other times, the conservatives have been relatively mainstream, labour have been way out to the left and labour have lost
Whether they succeed is difficult to guess, but Conservatives will surely at least try to capitalise on their new voters by giving back to the regions who have voted them in. Tories are historically good at giving their voter base what they want. If they do, and if labour under pressure from momentum maintain their more extreme hard left wing policies, tories could easily win another election
Johnnytheboy said:
It took them 14 years to come back from 1983.
Plus three changes of leader and what was almost a change of name.Changing will be hard enough, Momentum is going to be harder to dump that Militant tendency was. Convincing the electorate they've changed is something else again.
lockhart flawse said:
They need to appeal to the 96% of people who are not hung up on identity politics, open borders, trans rights and the other obsessions of the comfortably well-off metropolitan Leftish voter. They pretend to care but it's all about the maintenance of their personal myth - virtue signalling which is a massive turn-off. Most people dont give a flying f*** for any of this stuff nor Palestine (which no-one in the Middle East gives a fig about), Venezuela or any of the other weird obsessions that most people will only give time to after attending to the basic day-to-day stuff of living. The Labour Party puts the window dressing ahead of the foundations.
As I said on here at the time he was elected leader, this country was never going to elect as PM a man who wouldn't sing the National Anthem. And who kept Diana Abbot so close to a possible role in Government.
What next? Who did they keep away from the spotlight - Keir Starmer; he does at least have the air of someone who could be a PM which is important in most people's eyes. But if they shovel in one of those chippy northern women (or men but we only seem to hear from Rayner and Long-Bailey) they have no chance.
Agree - as chippy northener..... Lisa Nandy would be good shout - not contaminated by CorbynAs I said on here at the time he was elected leader, this country was never going to elect as PM a man who wouldn't sing the National Anthem. And who kept Diana Abbot so close to a possible role in Government.
What next? Who did they keep away from the spotlight - Keir Starmer; he does at least have the air of someone who could be a PM which is important in most people's eyes. But if they shovel in one of those chippy northern women (or men but we only seem to hear from Rayner and Long-Bailey) they have no chance.
k 'em. Let them burn.Mothersruin said:
The Momentum talking heads last night kept saying that their policies were extremely popular, Brexit was the issue.
For the time being, they're going to double-down on this...
Then why, in the name of all that's holy, if they knew this, did they try so hard not to make their offering about Brexit? For the time being, they're going to double-down on this...
I hope they retain their policies and continue to provide a real alternative, but with a more plausible leadership. This election was lost because of the general public's distrust of corbyn and co and their vacillation on brexit. Had they been more cogent and clear on brexit, they would have won, even with their policies. Corbyn inability to deal with the antisemitism row and inability to offer clear, direct leadership cost this party hugely.
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