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Discussion
Sway said:
Countdown said:
Sway said:
Read that link!
I've read the link thanks, although I'm not sure you have.Being exceptionally good at your job, or coming up with new ideas and innovations doesn't mean that you're either a wierdo or a misfit. There is aboslutely zero, zilch, nada, nothing in his biography to suggest a career path any different to the other scientists / engineers that were involved in the Apollo project.
Anyone with a photographic memory is a weirdo. Anyone willing to buck decades of accepted wisdom on how to do things, is a weirdo. Etc.
But hey, I'll concede the point. Really cannot be arsed about whether you think it's a good idea or not. Nor whether you believe there have ever been examples of it working.
Randy Winkman said:
... the fact that it's zero is surely of some note?
Not to anyone numerate it isn't; precisely my point and a good example of why Cummings might well have a point! You'd only expect 3 (with a probability of 22%) if the posts were filled at random from the population so 0 is not remotely surprising. 6 is just as 'surprising' as 0 at roughly 1 in 20. 0 is nothing special. 13 certainly would be of note though at 0.0008% probability!
Countdown said:
The fact that you say he had "the people skills to achieve it" proves that he was the very opposite of the wierdo/misfit you seem desperate to portray him as.
I'm really not desperate at all - hence my comments about conceding the point as I really cannot be arsed. However, I'm absolutely a misfit in a number of ways, yet can be very persuasive and seem to have a knack for building enthusiasm almost solely through my own optimism.
It's worked for me. It seems you view things wildly differently. It takes all sorts.
Which I think is Cummings' point. At the moment, there isn't the diversity of thought/approach in the policy development areas which means we're stuck with tiny incremental changes - each one earnt through a ever reducing RoI.
Dr Jekyll said:
Randy Winkman said:
True. But pretty much all of the BEIS senior civil servants will be based in London and I do think it's relevant that they don't represent the people in the streets outside. Whether there might be 3% or 13% black, the fact that it's zero is surely of some note? Zero is a big number.
But do they represent the people with good qualifications at the time they were recruited into the fast stream?fblm said:
Randy Winkman said:
... the fact that it's zero is surely of some note?
Not to anyone numerate it isn't; precisely my point and a good example of why Cummings might well have a point! You'd only expect 3 (with a probability of 22%) if the posts were filled at random from the population so 0 is not remotely surprising. 6 is just as 'surprising' as 0 at roughly 1 in 20. 0 is nothing special. 13 certainly would be of note though at 0.0008% probability!
Countdown said:
What kind of projects have been successfully implemented which have been staffed by "wierdos, misfits, people who never went to University"?
Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
Bletchley Park?Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
SOE?
Randy Winkman said:
No idea. But since they are senior people working on government policies that affect us all I think that if no black people with suitable qualifications apply we should be looking into why that is.
A friend of mine works for a well known university. He remarked that for their MBA course, BAME candidates this year constituted 2% of the applications and 3% of the offers, the previous year it was the other way round. For medical courses the proportion of BAME applicants is far higher than the proportion in the general population. Does it really matter?Randy Winkman said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Randy Winkman said:
True. But pretty much all of the BEIS senior civil servants will be based in London and I do think it's relevant that they don't represent the people in the streets outside. Whether there might be 3% or 13% black, the fact that it's zero is surely of some note? Zero is a big number.
But do they represent the people with good qualifications at the time they were recruited into the fast stream?https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/28/revers...
Countdown said:
To clarify - I have no doubt that there were some wierdos/misfits on the Apollo project (or indeed any other project you care to mention). But having lots of people who are wierd or misfits isn't a pre-requsite or necessary to implementing succesful projects. It's quite possible to implement them without any wierdos at all.
My gosh you are being obtuse.The point being raised is that Cummings (and others) believe the Civil Service is incapable of innovation and struggles implementing successful projects. His suggestion is that this is because anyone who wishes to do things differently within the organisation is seen as a weirdo or misfit. Even you must be aware that the civil service works very hard to preserve the way things are done - even when it results in outcomes such as hospital failures, mad ferry purchases, flatlining productivity or the Brexit vote.
So yes, if your organisation cannot deliver much needed innovation, then introducing diversity of thought is absolutely a pre-requisite to improvement.
Halb said:
Countdown said:
What kind of projects have been successfully implemented which have been staffed by "wierdos, misfits, people who never went to University"?
Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
Bletchley Park?Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
SOE?
Randy Winkman said:
Is recruitment all about mathematics? (See my reply above.)
Obviously not but a little basic maths applied sensibly can give you an insight into what really is statistically relevant rather more than what you 'feel'. I'm going to hazard a guess you can neither do the maths nor think it's useful?amusingduck said:
Randy Winkman said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Randy Winkman said:
True. But pretty much all of the BEIS senior civil servants will be based in London and I do think it's relevant that they don't represent the people in the streets outside. Whether there might be 3% or 13% black, the fact that it's zero is surely of some note? Zero is a big number.
But do they represent the people with good qualifications at the time they were recruited into the fast stream?https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/28/revers...
fblm said:
Randy Winkman said:
Is recruitment all about mathematics? (See my reply above.)
Obviously not but a little basic maths applied sensibly can give you an insight into what really is statistically relevant rather more than what you 'feel'. I'm going to hazard a guess you can neither do the maths nor think it's useful?Some of the stuff our data scientists are doing to further safety in a critical industry is genuinely incredible. A complete and utter game changer, and one the relevant regulators are being surprisingly proactive about, compared to their usual immense inertia for any form of change at all.
Unfortunately, I'm enough of a luddite my eyes glaze over as soon as they start talking about data lakes and suchlike. And I like maths!
Sway said:
fblm said:
Randy Winkman said:
Is recruitment all about mathematics? (See my reply above.)
Obviously not but a little basic maths applied sensibly can give you an insight into what really is statistically relevant rather more than what you 'feel'. I'm going to hazard a guess you can neither do the maths nor think it's useful?Some of the stuff our data scientists are doing to further safety in a critical industry is genuinely incredible. A complete and utter game changer, and one the relevant regulators are being surprisingly proactive about, compared to their usual immense inertia for any form of change at all.
Unfortunately, I'm enough of a luddite my eyes glaze over as soon as they start talking about data lakes and suchlike. And I like maths!
Perhaps one of them can give us a view on the significance of the difference between zero and 3? Randy Winkman said:
Perhaps one of them can give us a view on the significance of the difference between zero and 3? 
If I asked a few of them, then I doubt there's sufficient time left this decade for covering the response!
Absolutely mind blowing skills, but my word they live in a world connected but entirely separate from ours.
Tuna said:
Countdown said:
To clarify - I have no doubt that there were some wierdos/misfits on the Apollo project (or indeed any other project you care to mention). But having lots of people who are wierd or misfits isn't a pre-requsite or necessary to implementing succesful projects. It's quite possible to implement them without any wierdos at all.
My gosh you are being obtuse.The point being raised is that Cummings (and others) believe the Civil Service is incapable of innovation and struggles implementing successful projects. His suggestion is that this is because anyone who wishes to do things differently within the organisation is seen as a weirdo or misfit. Even you must be aware that the civil service works very hard to preserve the way things are done - even when it results in outcomes such as hospital failures, mad ferry purchases, flatlining productivity or the Brexit vote.
So yes, if your organisation cannot deliver much needed innovation, then introducing diversity of thought is absolutely a pre-requisite to improvement.
Edited by NJH on Saturday 4th January 21:42
Sway said:
Randy Winkman said:
Perhaps one of them can give us a view on the significance of the difference between zero and 3? If I asked a few of them, then I doubt there's sufficient time left this decade for covering the response!
Absolutely mind blowing skills, but my word they live in a world connected but entirely separate from ours.
NJH said:
Serious question. When whatever Cummings is up to comes up with new ideas are they going to be tested by reasonably well constructed RCT pilot studies, and then implemented or not as new policy based on cold hard analysis of the outcomes?
We'll see. Some of the stuff he's suggesting is basic questions like "why don't we have colour photocopiers?" or "why is there no facility to view presentations in the cabinet room?". I don't think you need pilot studies to test whether there's an opportunity for improvement there.Some of the stuff is about oversight and evidence - again, it's not about changing the decision making process, but adding parallel processes to protect against idiot decisions, or test conclusions for contradictions. (Red teams, pre-mortems and so on).
Some of the stuff is about responsibility - how is it a minister can commit to a project like HS2 (or Brexit) without having a defined process for how it will be delivered, or criteria for knowing when or if it should be abandoned?
From what I've read, government commits to a handful of very large scale projects in each parliament - and the success rate (Universal Credit, HS2) is low. In 2018, of the 12 major government projects, only one was rated as 'green' in the traffic light system. RCTs just don't work at that scale.
It's not as if he's suggesting stuff that people in other industries wouldn't recognised as best practise - it's that the civil service delivers information for key decisions in leather cases that were designed in 1860 and cost nearly £900 - more than a laptop, to deliver a handful of papers that cannot be searched, cross referenced, version managed or audited.
Tuna said:
My gosh you are being obtuse.
The point being raised is that Cummings (and others) believe the Civil Service is incapable of innovation and struggles implementing successful projects. His suggestion is that this is because anyone who wishes to do things differently within the organisation is seen as a weirdo or misfit. Even you must be aware that the civil service works very hard to preserve the way things are done - even when it results in outcomes such as hospital failures, mad ferry purchases, flatlining productivity or the Brexit vote.
t.
I’m reasonably aware of how the CS works thanks. I was a CS until 2009. The examples you give to imply some kind of structural flaws in the CS show that you dont actually seem to know much about what the CS does and how it goes about doing this. E.g. The “mad ferry purchase” was a decision taken by Grayling, not the CS. The point being raised is that Cummings (and others) believe the Civil Service is incapable of innovation and struggles implementing successful projects. His suggestion is that this is because anyone who wishes to do things differently within the organisation is seen as a weirdo or misfit. Even you must be aware that the civil service works very hard to preserve the way things are done - even when it results in outcomes such as hospital failures, mad ferry purchases, flatlining productivity or the Brexit vote.
t.
Maybe somebody should have suggested to TSB that they employ more misfits and weirdos in their IT Dept?
Sway said:
Halb said:
Countdown said:
What kind of projects have been successfully implemented which have been staffed by "wierdos, misfits, people who never went to University"?
Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
Bletchley Park?Projects failure isn't restricted to just the Public Sector. It's possibly more noticed in the Public Sector because the size of the projects carried out tends to be so big). I'm not saying there isn't a place for wierdos and misfits somewhere in the CS, (our IT team is full of them) but it's not likely to improve the CS in any significant way.
SOE?
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