Cummings' Jobs Advert
Discussion
princeperch said:
There are some very good managers (my boss is one) but overwhelmingly management is poor. That is because people become managers because it's a relatively easy way of getting more money. That is a key problem - how do you recruit, retain and motivate someone when you can't give them a meaningful pay rise ? How do you maintain motivation when the employee doesn't want to become a manager and therefore can't get a meaningful increase in pay?
As I understood it, the Blair government pushed for 'more' graduates, because the PS pay structure works on a system which awards managers as a function of the number of grads they have beneath them.I would agree with others that the first thing which needs radical overhaul is the rigid pay grade structure.
Watching the excellent Chernobyl over Xmas, I am also reminded of how it is not only money and not only the private sector that corrupts.
princeperch said:
When the s
t hits the fan and you get a problem employee, then it really does hit the fan. I routinely deal with matters where a staff member has either been suspended or has been off sick for a considerable amount of time - sometimes a year or more. Employees know how to play the system, lodging multiple grievances which half the time the department doesn't have the resources to deal with.
HR and contracts are not really fit for purpose.t hits the fan and you get a problem employee, then it really does hit the fan. I routinely deal with matters where a staff member has either been suspended or has been off sick for a considerable amount of time - sometimes a year or more. Employees know how to play the system, lodging multiple grievances which half the time the department doesn't have the resources to deal with. The problem is there are huge differences between departments within the civil service, hardly any will share the same pay or pension structures, grading or opportunities...
If you don’t understand the differences between departments at present, saying the civil service needs an major overhaul is a pointless statement, one department may be far more aligned to “best practices” or a private sector operating model compared to another.
If you don’t understand the differences between departments at present, saying the civil service needs an major overhaul is a pointless statement, one department may be far more aligned to “best practices” or a private sector operating model compared to another.
Sway said:
Does the Public Sector have career frameworks that have parallel (and equal) streams for 'professional/sme' and 'leadership'? In my experience, that prevents the pull into the 'wrong fit' progression role purely because that's the defined, sole, path.
I've only ever worked for 1 company which had that setup in 30 years and that was when I lived in the states. Never understood most companies desire to take good sme's and turn them into poor managers(in most cases)Certainly in my experience you are paid as a G6/g7 - that will include a management allowance but it takes no account of how many people you actually manage.
There are serious morale issues in the public sector too. There are fairly wide differences in pay. For example, I am paid £54 ish. I know for a fact that there are lawyers doing my job with the same experience as me, yet they are paid 65/70k. That's because they transferred from another department into my team. That's not their fault - fair play to them.
But do you think that if I earn 15k less than them I'm going to bust my pick? Don't get me wrong I'll do what's required and I won't leave anyone in the lurch, but discretionary effort and free overtime? They don't get any off me.
There are serious morale issues in the public sector too. There are fairly wide differences in pay. For example, I am paid £54 ish. I know for a fact that there are lawyers doing my job with the same experience as me, yet they are paid 65/70k. That's because they transferred from another department into my team. That's not their fault - fair play to them.
But do you think that if I earn 15k less than them I'm going to bust my pick? Don't get me wrong I'll do what's required and I won't leave anyone in the lurch, but discretionary effort and free overtime? They don't get any off me.
This bunch of clowns have just been voted in by the type of people that are old/rigid and cant stomach any change.
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
Fundoreen said:
This bunch of clowns have just been voted in by the type of people that are old/rigid and cant stomach any change.
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
Shout “public sector reform” though, make up some guff about “gold plated pensions” and huge pay rises, none of which needs to be true btw, and their (old and rigid) core voter support will lap it up and run with it all night long, just like they did with “get Brexit done”...All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
bp1 said:
Sway said:
Does the Public Sector have career frameworks that have parallel (and equal) streams for 'professional/sme' and 'leadership'? In my experience, that prevents the pull into the 'wrong fit' progression role purely because that's the defined, sole, path.
I've only ever worked for 1 company which had that setup in 30 years and that was when I lived in the states. Never understood most companies desire to take good sme's and turn them into poor managers(in most cases)Dr Jekyll said:
princeperch said:
Good luck with this. He wants to recruit talented people, at the top of their game.
The problem is money. A grade 7 or grade 6 (which are fairly senior roles) earn between 50-70 ish at the moment. A senior civil servant can get promoted and get a ten pc pay rise from the G6 salary.
So the sums involved, especially if you are in London, are pretty small. I know spad roles can pay more (up to about 100k or so) but I doubt they will be recruiting at that level, the roles will be at g7/G6 level.
Pay really is a problem in the civil service. A lot of people simply can't stomach the money.
Dominic Cummings is only on abut £100k so it's difficult to see his recruits being on more.The problem is money. A grade 7 or grade 6 (which are fairly senior roles) earn between 50-70 ish at the moment. A senior civil servant can get promoted and get a ten pc pay rise from the G6 salary.
So the sums involved, especially if you are in London, are pretty small. I know spad roles can pay more (up to about 100k or so) but I doubt they will be recruiting at that level, the roles will be at g7/G6 level.
Pay really is a problem in the civil service. A lot of people simply can't stomach the money.
KarlMac said:
Dr Jekyll said:
princeperch said:
Good luck with this. He wants to recruit talented people, at the top of their game.
The problem is money. A grade 7 or grade 6 (which are fairly senior roles) earn between 50-70 ish at the moment. A senior civil servant can get promoted and get a ten pc pay rise from the G6 salary.
So the sums involved, especially if you are in London, are pretty small. I know spad roles can pay more (up to about 100k or so) but I doubt they will be recruiting at that level, the roles will be at g7/G6 level.
Pay really is a problem in the civil service. A lot of people simply can't stomach the money.
Dominic Cummings is only on abut £100k so it's difficult to see his recruits being on more.The problem is money. A grade 7 or grade 6 (which are fairly senior roles) earn between 50-70 ish at the moment. A senior civil servant can get promoted and get a ten pc pay rise from the G6 salary.
So the sums involved, especially if you are in London, are pretty small. I know spad roles can pay more (up to about 100k or so) but I doubt they will be recruiting at that level, the roles will be at g7/G6 level.
Pay really is a problem in the civil service. A lot of people simply can't stomach the money.
Fundoreen said:
This bunch of clowns have just been voted in by the type of people that are old/rigid and cant stomach any change.
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
Seems like a few on here think they meet the requirements. All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
Obviously the vast majority of the government's work will be done by the same types as before, this sounds like Cummings inner chamber, his version of skunk works or Google’s jigsaw. I think he sees himself a bit like Bobby Axelrod from billions.
Is it much different from Alistair Campbell or any other unelected spin doctor coming in and talking about making complex data driven changes with some new w
ky disruptive phrases and tough guy nonsense? It does seem odd though that a population and in particular less well off people feeling disenfranchised and complaining about a disconnect with the political class will now somehow be satisfied by boffins banging on about a Model-Free Prediction of Large Spatiotemporally Chaotic Systems from data etc.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 3rd January 12:21
El stovey said:
Seems like a few on here think they meet the requirements.
Obviously the vast majority of the government's work will be done by the same types as before, this sounds like Cummings inner chamber, his version of skunk works or Google’s jigsaw. I think he sees himself a bit like Bobby Axelrod from billions.
Is it much different from Alistair Campbell or any other unelected spin doctor coming in and talking about making complex data driven changes with some new wky disruptive phrases and tough guy nonsense?
The difference is that DC seems willing to risk short term popularity in order to reform Whitehall and is not particularly concerned about presentation. AC's job was purely about popularity and presentation.Obviously the vast majority of the government's work will be done by the same types as before, this sounds like Cummings inner chamber, his version of skunk works or Google’s jigsaw. I think he sees himself a bit like Bobby Axelrod from billions.
Is it much different from Alistair Campbell or any other unelected spin doctor coming in and talking about making complex data driven changes with some new w
ky disruptive phrases and tough guy nonsense? Dr Jekyll said:
Dominic Cummings is only on abut £100k so it's difficult to see his recruits being on more.
Is that payment from the taxpayers? How much more directly from conservative coffers and other sources.There are advisors being paid more, so the £100k will be a presentable figure for the media imagine.
Fundoreen said:
This bunch of clowns have just been voted in by the type of people that are old/rigid and cant stomach any change.
Really? Still with the ageist nonsense? Is it not the case that many of these old/rigid people have just voted to ensure the biggest political change of the past 40 years? (Leaving the EU) Seems to me that it's others that cannot stomach change
Fundoreen said:
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Maybe that is because those 'radical policies' were really not that radical at all. Anyone over the age of 50 probably has memories of the impact that just the same 'radical policies' had on UK society the last time they were tried. Fundoreen said:
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
in my experience, genuinely clever people came in all ages, types and fields of expertise. - and most importantly, if you can create the right environment these different types of people will enjoy working with each other. But I suspect that's not what you meant, and that in fact you're just ranting about voters you don't understand and a result you clearly have not yet accepted.
Fundoreen said:
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
What's this? Clever people will want to take up this challenge after all.....? But you said above....Clearly, you're a bit bitter. Don't worry, they won't be expecting you to apply.
Cummings is an interesting character.
Just a few points:
The general approach is welcome but not his very specific and narrow obsessions on data science as the panacea to cure all ills.
Almost certainly going to have almost no overall positive effect for the wider CS. Why you ask? Almost every killer new technology or methodology was at one point in the midsts of time either originally developed or trialled extensively in a government laboratory. Similar teams will be stood up every few years to R&D almost precisely the same problems, every time almost guaranteed to have almost no impact outside the early flourish of interest in the results. Everything that he goes on about on his blog would have already been researched somewhere in the CS, a nice in depth report written, and then quietly put on a shelf somewhere to gather dust. Shelfware is the end product, always was, and always will be whilst the same organisations are in control.
To make real change is going to require monumental political will, it will almost certainly require a level of bypassing the current CS. One way of achieving that is to move things out into regional or local government in to newly created quangoes or local/regional government departments, something that Cummings is supposed to champion but we haven't seen it yet. I also see no indication that the new government is willing to make such a huge change, if anything Tories have always wanted more central control, it's in their DNA to be the boss and master of all.
I know its very cynical but I can't help but feel this is his hail Mary move, the start of one enormous two fingered salute. Why on earth would one state upfront that they want to be out of it in two years. He knows his time is limited and will unfortunately take the path to create as much carnage as possible in that time. I see him being binned off by Bojo within the year, he has done his job already, he has far too many enemies in London to survive for long. Sad really as the country badly needs disruptors and innovators.
Just a few points:
The general approach is welcome but not his very specific and narrow obsessions on data science as the panacea to cure all ills.
Almost certainly going to have almost no overall positive effect for the wider CS. Why you ask? Almost every killer new technology or methodology was at one point in the midsts of time either originally developed or trialled extensively in a government laboratory. Similar teams will be stood up every few years to R&D almost precisely the same problems, every time almost guaranteed to have almost no impact outside the early flourish of interest in the results. Everything that he goes on about on his blog would have already been researched somewhere in the CS, a nice in depth report written, and then quietly put on a shelf somewhere to gather dust. Shelfware is the end product, always was, and always will be whilst the same organisations are in control.
To make real change is going to require monumental political will, it will almost certainly require a level of bypassing the current CS. One way of achieving that is to move things out into regional or local government in to newly created quangoes or local/regional government departments, something that Cummings is supposed to champion but we haven't seen it yet. I also see no indication that the new government is willing to make such a huge change, if anything Tories have always wanted more central control, it's in their DNA to be the boss and master of all.
I know its very cynical but I can't help but feel this is his hail Mary move, the start of one enormous two fingered salute. Why on earth would one state upfront that they want to be out of it in two years. He knows his time is limited and will unfortunately take the path to create as much carnage as possible in that time. I see him being binned off by Bojo within the year, he has done his job already, he has far too many enemies in London to survive for long. Sad really as the country badly needs disruptors and innovators.
El stovey said:
Seems like a few on here think they meet the requirements. I'd like to think so, and am entirely happy with my CV - but it's more that what's presented fits with my outlook on my work/career.
Obviously the vast majority of the government's work will be done by the same types as before, this sounds like Cummings inner chamber, his version of skunk works or Google’s jigsaw. I think he sees himself a bit like Bobby Axelrod from billions. Absolutely nothing wrong with that... Skunkworks and Jigsaw are well known for a reason!
Is it much different from Alistair Campbell or any other unelected spin doctor coming in and talking about making complex data driven changes with some new wky disruptive phrases and tough guy nonsense?
I think so - Campbell's reforms all seemed to be related to presentation and public perception, than delivery...
It does seem odd though that a population and in particular less well off people feeling disenfranchised and complaining about a disconnect with the political class will now somehow be satisfied by boffins banging on about a Model-Free Prediction of Large Spatiotemporally Chaotic Systems from data etc.
The 'Workington man' doesn't give a st how the changes have come about, but that things change/improve. Whether it's the application of modelling techniques in the field of physics into macroeconomics, or someone jotting down an idea on a post it in a brainstorming session - it's the result, not the mechanism, that these 'disenfranchised' people care about.
All IMHO, obvs. I'd like to think so, and am entirely happy with my CV - but it's more that what's presented fits with my outlook on my work/career. Obviously the vast majority of the government's work will be done by the same types as before, this sounds like Cummings inner chamber, his version of skunk works or Google’s jigsaw. I think he sees himself a bit like Bobby Axelrod from billions. Absolutely nothing wrong with that... Skunkworks and Jigsaw are well known for a reason!
Is it much different from Alistair Campbell or any other unelected spin doctor coming in and talking about making complex data driven changes with some new w
ky disruptive phrases and tough guy nonsense? I think so - Campbell's reforms all seemed to be related to presentation and public perception, than delivery...
It does seem odd though that a population and in particular less well off people feeling disenfranchised and complaining about a disconnect with the political class will now somehow be satisfied by boffins banging on about a Model-Free Prediction of Large Spatiotemporally Chaotic Systems from data etc.
The 'Workington man' doesn't give a s
t how the changes have come about, but that things change/improve. Whether it's the application of modelling techniques in the field of physics into macroeconomics, or someone jotting down an idea on a post it in a brainstorming session - it's the result, not the mechanism, that these 'disenfranchised' people care about. Edited by El stovey on Friday 3rd January 12:21
BlackTails said:
This sounds suspiciously like Cummings replacing a “people like us” recruitment culture with a “people like me” culture. Plus ça change...
Cummings may find his abrasive my-way or-the-highway/I’m-in-charge-do-as-I-say-or-get-out style works when there’s one of him, but works less well when there’s 10,000 of him.
This. Cummings may find his abrasive my-way or-the-highway/I’m-in-charge-do-as-I-say-or-get-out style works when there’s one of him, but works less well when there’s 10,000 of him.
Could have just said:
‘Weirdos and misfits with odd skills’
and left the other descriptions out.
Fundoreen said:
This bunch of clowns have just been voted in by the type of people that are old/rigid and cant stomach any change.
All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
As above, I like the idea of giving something back after having a good career in finance.All the radical policies put forward by the opposition were rejected.
Why would any brilliant weirdo want to work for these fossils?
They will get some nuts for sure that will just be there to make life hard for people doing all the actual heavy lifting.
I’m not sure why you think that Conservative voters can’t stomach any change, it seems as though you are maybe inventing facts to match your prejudices.
hyphen said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Dominic Cummings is only on abut £100k so it's difficult to see his recruits being on more.
Is that payment from the taxpayers? How much more directly from conservative coffers and other sources.There are advisors being paid more, so the £100k will be a presentable figure for the media imagine.
The people he’s trying to attract could be earning that kind of money easily elsewhere.
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