Cummings' Jobs Advert
Discussion
Are they trying to be cool to be accepted by millenials?
I suspect they don't want misfits or weirdos except to parade them around to demonstrate that they're being inclusive and New Tory (whatever that might mean to you). So, maybe the mythical black Irish lesbian might get a job purely based on that providing that she is suffering from some kind of mental health issue and also isn't sure that she wants to stay female. Also being obese and requiring a motorised wheelchair would put you forward for a serious contender?
I suspect they don't want misfits or weirdos except to parade them around to demonstrate that they're being inclusive and New Tory (whatever that might mean to you). So, maybe the mythical black Irish lesbian might get a job purely based on that providing that she is suffering from some kind of mental health issue and also isn't sure that she wants to stay female. Also being obese and requiring a motorised wheelchair would put you forward for a serious contender?
Kent Border Kenny said:
As above, I like the idea of giving something back after having a good career in finance.
That's all well and good, but it's the system we have at the moment.A huge number of central gov depts employ ex city types in law, accountancy, IT, and national security, but that leads to the situation we are in at the moment. A workforce of already rich white middle class people, and a steam of grievances from bame staff members when they are passed over for promotion/bonuses or feel they are being harassed and victimised by their managers at work. I see it daily.
princeperch said:
Kent Border Kenny said:
As above, I like the idea of giving something back after having a good career in finance.
That's all well and good, but it's the system we have at the moment.A huge number of central gov depts employ ex city types in law, accountancy, IT, and national security, but that leads to the situation we are in at the moment. A workforce of already rich white middle class people, and a steam of grievances from bame staff members when they are passed over for promotion/bonuses or feel they are being harassed and victimised by their managers at work. I see it daily.
Eric Mc said:
The description of the people he seems to want indicates to me that the "weirdos" he'd end up with would be exactly the WRONG type of people to lead teams, work in groups, exercise "people" skills etc.
^^^ And that there is exactly his [Cummings] point. He wants people that can unlearn their programmed dogma. I'm surprised you can't see that Eric.From one of his talk links from his blog a point is made that I think illustrates what is happening now, it's very interesting.
To paraphrase: "If you think you're right the chances are that you are blind to other options which in all likely hood are going to produce a better outcome."
El stovey said:
There’s no way Cummings will be earning 100k he’s one of the most influential people in the country. Having that kind of influence and responsibility in the private sector would have him earning many times that.
The people he’s trying to attract could be earning that kind of money easily elsewhere.
https://politicshome.com/news/uk/government-and-public-sector/government-agencies/news/108742/dominic-cummings%E2%80%99-salaryThe people he’s trying to attract could be earning that kind of money easily elsewhere.
Looks like he's on less than 100k.
The pm is only on 160 or something isn't he?
There’s DEFINITELY another great tv series about Cummings in all of this anyway.
Imagine an updated version of yes minister made by Netflix full of these disruptive thinkers and boffins from different backgrounds (but the same universities) battling against each other and the establishment to get their ideas turned into policies. Led by Benedict Cumberbatch (or someone a bit more sinister) again and in turn led by a populist jovial PM who lies a lot and is a bit of a philanderer.
Imagine an updated version of yes minister made by Netflix full of these disruptive thinkers and boffins from different backgrounds (but the same universities) battling against each other and the establishment to get their ideas turned into policies. Led by Benedict Cumberbatch (or someone a bit more sinister) again and in turn led by a populist jovial PM who lies a lot and is a bit of a philanderer.
JustALooseScrew said:
Eric Mc said:
The description of the people he seems to want indicates to me that the "weirdos" he'd end up with would be exactly the WRONG type of people to lead teams, work in groups, exercise "people" skills etc.
^^^ And that there is exactly his [Cummings] point. He wants people that can unlearn their programmed dogma. I'm surprised you can't see that Eric.I think those posters are missing Cummings' inspiration - this is coming from projects like the moon landing and PARC - examples where the 'weirdos' were tolerated, if not positively encouraged to break traditional (and hideously inefficient) organisational structures in order to "get things done". He was also badly scarred (it seems) by experiences of trying to introduce change to the Department for Education.
For all that people say "the civil service has bright people" and "it does an amazing job"... it has to be pointed out that it does an amazing job at continuing the status quo. If you look at how education, or planning, or health services have changed over the years, it is by the smallest incremental amounts in recent times. Politics has become an argument over who will spend just slightly more than the other guy on doing what is already being done. The days of radical change (such as introducing the health service in the first place) are long gone and we're lumbered with occasional vanity projects that get launched to shine up a politician's career and then flap around like a dead fish for years (*cough* HS2 *cough*). Similarly, if the civil service is running things so well, how on earth do we get cock ups like Grayling's idiot ferry announcement?
And I can't agree with people who just dismiss it as 'propaganda'. They've just won a landslide election, there is no need for propaganda at this stage, and if they did need it, it would come from Boris or someone who actually wants to be in the public eye. Cummings blog is dense, rambling and technical, with no attempt at making friends or convincing people to do anything (apart from maybe apply for a job). Dismissing it without understanding what he is actually talking about ('weirdos') is radically missing the point (perhaps some people are afraid of catching something nasty if they read it properly).
Tuna said:
It's similar to a few other posts "Can't possibly work", "nothing will change", "What does he know".
I think those posters are missing Cummings' inspiration - this is coming from projects like the moon landing and PARC - examples where the 'weirdos' were tolerated, if not positively encouraged to break traditional (and hideously inefficient) organisational structures in order to "get things done". He was also badly scarred (it seems) by experiences of trying to introduce change to the Department for Education.
For all that people say "the civil service has bright people" and "it does an amazing job"... it has to be pointed out that it does an amazing job at continuing the status quo. If you look at how education, or planning, or health services have changed over the years, it is by the smallest incremental amounts in recent times. Politics has become an argument over who will spend just slightly more than the other guy on doing what is already being done. The days of radical change (such as introducing the health service in the first place) are long gone and we're lumbered with occasional vanity projects that get launched to shine up a politician's career and then flap around like a dead fish for years (*cough* HS2 *cough*). Similarly, if the civil service is running things so well, how on earth do we get cock ups like Grayling's idiot ferry announcement?
And I can't agree with people who just dismiss it as 'propaganda'. They've just won a landslide election, there is no need for propaganda at this stage, and if they did need it, it would come from Boris or someone who actually wants to be in the public eye. Cummings blog is dense, rambling and technical, with no attempt at making friends or convincing people to do anything (apart from maybe apply for a job). Dismissing it without understanding what he is actually talking about ('weirdos') is radically missing the point (perhaps some people are afraid of catching something nasty if they read it properly).
On the money there Tuna. I think those posters are missing Cummings' inspiration - this is coming from projects like the moon landing and PARC - examples where the 'weirdos' were tolerated, if not positively encouraged to break traditional (and hideously inefficient) organisational structures in order to "get things done". He was also badly scarred (it seems) by experiences of trying to introduce change to the Department for Education.
For all that people say "the civil service has bright people" and "it does an amazing job"... it has to be pointed out that it does an amazing job at continuing the status quo. If you look at how education, or planning, or health services have changed over the years, it is by the smallest incremental amounts in recent times. Politics has become an argument over who will spend just slightly more than the other guy on doing what is already being done. The days of radical change (such as introducing the health service in the first place) are long gone and we're lumbered with occasional vanity projects that get launched to shine up a politician's career and then flap around like a dead fish for years (*cough* HS2 *cough*). Similarly, if the civil service is running things so well, how on earth do we get cock ups like Grayling's idiot ferry announcement?
And I can't agree with people who just dismiss it as 'propaganda'. They've just won a landslide election, there is no need for propaganda at this stage, and if they did need it, it would come from Boris or someone who actually wants to be in the public eye. Cummings blog is dense, rambling and technical, with no attempt at making friends or convincing people to do anything (apart from maybe apply for a job). Dismissing it without understanding what he is actually talking about ('weirdos') is radically missing the point (perhaps some people are afraid of catching something nasty if they read it properly).
[I bet he put 'weirdos' into the mix as he knew it'd be the thing picked up in any headlines, underlining his points about them entirely...]
Tuna said:
El stovey said:
There’s no way Cummings will be earning 100k he’s one of the most influential people in the country.
One of the rules he put in as part of the Leave campaign - no one should be on a six figure salary just for doing a technical job. One he still maintains.Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
andy_s said:
On the money there Tuna.
[I bet he put 'weirdos' into the mix as he knew it'd be the thing picked up in any headlines, underlining his points about them entirely...]
Isn’t he just saying he wants people like him but adding some specific backgrounds for different positions? [I bet he put 'weirdos' into the mix as he knew it'd be the thing picked up in any headlines, underlining his points about them entirely...]
El stovey said:
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
This. Plus, a lot of disruptive free thinkers aren't going to get better money elsewhere - because they don't conform.
Certainly, for me there was simply no chance I'd have had any longevity or success at one of the 'names' - and yet I've had a fruitful and pretty successful career so far. I've focused on working for companies who do want someone like me - rather than becoming something I'm not (where all my innate USPs will by default disappear).
Plus, there's a huge amount of people who aren't motivated solely by the size of the paycheque - as long as the paycheque is, to quote old RR "sufficient".
El stovey said:
Seems odd, Isn’t that going to limit who he gets? The gifted people that meet those job descriptions and are willing to work those hours etc, would be able to get those salaries easily in the private sector and are likely doing so already.
Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
Be a drone in the City or be part of a team that could revolutionise modern politics for generations to come? I can see the appeal and it I met the criteria I would probably put and application in just for the experience. Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
El stovey said:
Seems odd, Isn’t that going to limit who he gets? The gifted people that meet those job descriptions and are willing to work those hours etc, would be able to get those salaries easily in the private sector and are likely doing so already.
Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
I think the assumption that high salaries automatically identify the 'best' workers is open to question - salaries often reflect risk and reward (in proportion and inversely respectively) for jobs, and then get overwhelmed by the concept of seniority. Certain people on here would never tire of telling you how much they earn, but I wouldn't ask them to implement radical change any more than I'd ask our milk man to run a dairy farm.Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
If you're in your early thirties, unencumbered with beliefs about "how it's always been done" and interested in moving fast and breaking things, a 100K salary would be a pretty good reward. If you're a wide boy trader who just wants to make a deal that you can brag about at the yacht club, it'll sound like a penalty - but Cummings absolutely doesn't want you working for him.
Tuna said:
El stovey said:
Seems odd, Isn’t that going to limit who he gets? The gifted people that meet those job descriptions and are willing to work those hours etc, would be able to get those salaries easily in the private sector and are likely doing so already.
Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
I think the assumption that high salaries automatically identify the 'best' workers is open to question - salaries often reflect risk and reward (in proportion and inversely respectively) for jobs, and then get overwhelmed by the concept of seniority. Certain people on here would never tire of telling you how much they earn, but I wouldn't ask them to implement radical change any more than I'd ask our milk man to run a dairy farm.Will people accept those differences in earnings just to be part of the action in government? He’s asking for very gifted hard working people, that’s simply not what those people are worth outside government.
I suppose he only needs a handful who would rather be involved in those positions than making more money outside Downing Street and it must be pretty intoxicating to be involved in the inner workings of government.
If you're in your early thirties, unencumbered with beliefs about "how it's always been done" and interested in moving fast and breaking things, a 100K salary would be a pretty good reward. If you're a wide boy trader who just wants to make a deal that you can brag about at the yacht club, it'll sound like a penalty - but Cummings absolutely doesn't want you working for him.
Put another way, at least they are being paid. This is a far better opportunity for many bright young things than any internship or post graduate qualification.
Slightly O/T: My sixpennorth - alongside all the high-brow clever bits, the government needs to establish much closer and more widespread links to the coalface of the SME economy. Government policy can make or break the entrepreneurial environment. One such example was the change in business rates on empty, new build business and industrial units which means there are far fewer speculative builds and, therefore, far fewer units vacant, ready to house someone's next new business idea. Small point, but has a big effect, as a great many businesses first need somewhere to 'be' in order to begin.
Tuna said:
Cummings blog is dense, rambling and technical, with no attempt at making friends or convincing people to do anything (apart from maybe apply for a job). Dismissing it without understanding what he is actually talking about ('weirdos') is radically missing the point (perhaps some people are afraid of catching something nasty if they read it properly).
100% agree, I've only recently started properly digging in to it and he'll willingly throw you off at a tangent using just a one liner that can take me days to get to the bottom of.I like it, it's very challenging, I was taught to question everything (well, except your parents
), I find his thinking and ideas very refreshing, occasionally I think 'I can see where you are going with this' and I'm proved right, other times it's over my head (having never been in a senior management or team leader role) but I can get the jist of it.To me he seems quite sincere in his beliefs that things can be and should be done more effectively and efficiently and I like some of his ideas.
Sway said:
This.
Plus, a lot of disruptive free thinkers aren't going to get better money elsewhere - because they don't conform.
Certainly, for me there was simply no chance I'd have had any longevity or success at one of the 'names' - and yet I've had a fruitful and pretty successful career so far. I've focused on working for companies who do want someone like me - rather than becoming something I'm not (where all my innate USPs will by default disappear).
Plus, there's a huge amount of people who aren't motivated solely by the size of the paycheque - as long as the paycheque is, to quote old RR "sufficient".
All day long, I really suffer from this 'problem' - I'm just not motivated by money. It's a fPlus, a lot of disruptive free thinkers aren't going to get better money elsewhere - because they don't conform.
Certainly, for me there was simply no chance I'd have had any longevity or success at one of the 'names' - and yet I've had a fruitful and pretty successful career so far. I've focused on working for companies who do want someone like me - rather than becoming something I'm not (where all my innate USPs will by default disappear).
Plus, there's a huge amount of people who aren't motivated solely by the size of the paycheque - as long as the paycheque is, to quote old RR "sufficient".
king curse.FiF said:
Civil Service fast track seminar, attended by 1 (one) BAME female, rest white male Hooray Henry bull effluenters. Situation normal, nothing to see here, move along please those from poorer regions, you can't afford to live in London donchaknow. Cynical? Moi?
The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy currently has no black senior civil servants at all. Not one. And they have 100+ senior civil servants. JustALooseScrew said:
100% agree, I've only recently started properly digging in to it and he'll willingly throw you off at a tangent using just a one liner that can take me days to get to the bottom of.
I like it, it's very challenging, I was taught to question everything (well, except your parents ), I find his thinking and ideas very refreshing, occasionally I think 'I can see where you are going with this' and I'm proved right, other times it's over my head (having never been in a senior management or team leader role) but I can get the jist of it.
To me he seems quite sincere in his beliefs that things can be and should be done more effectively and efficiently and I like some of his ideas.
I've started wading through some of the older posts, off the back of reading the "job advert" one which started this thread. Alongside this thoughts there is some illuminating commentary about decisions made around him and the people involved. Clearly not a fan of Nick Clegg...I like it, it's very challenging, I was taught to question everything (well, except your parents
), I find his thinking and ideas very refreshing, occasionally I think 'I can see where you are going with this' and I'm proved right, other times it's over my head (having never been in a senior management or team leader role) but I can get the jist of it.To me he seems quite sincere in his beliefs that things can be and should be done more effectively and efficiently and I like some of his ideas.
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