2020 Retailers in trouble thread
Discussion
gizlaroc said:
worsy said:
I get the point, however over lockdown, having no social life and being presented by with some inedible supermarket crap we started to use our local farm shop. Never say never but the quality is far superior and I hope not to go back to supermarket cuts.
We have too, but it makes it easy that you can park outside. My butcher is just as good, but no parking so you have to go into the car park to use him, hence I don't bother.
Joey Deacon said:
menousername said:
Welshbeef said:
Let’s take an individual who normally works in an office which is based in a town /village /city. They are able to WFH.
If they were going to the office they would
1. Buy fuel /train ticket /bus ticket
2. Parking costs
3. Office attire maybe new shirts shoes every 6 months.
4. Maybe a coffee on the way in.
5. Lunch snacks stroll round town buying the odd thing /unrequited purchases.
6. Maybe after work drinks every now and again
7. Grab a take away.
8. Possible taxis now and again.
9. I often pass holiday shops and outdoor pursuit shops and pop in browse ditto clothes shops and hairdressers now none.
10. Maybe a pub/pizza/etc lunch with the boss/team/subordinate.
11. Maybe lunch with a friend or coffee and cake.
Now stop ALL of the above spend. Instead increase weekly grocery spend a tiny tiny bit more electric cost at home. You’ll be wearing out non work clothes but no issue I wearing some rather Tatty kit/ replacing clothes every as and when required. Multiply that one individual by everyone who can work at home is a HUGE problem.
Food/grocery games hobby kit house decoration gardening trips out.
Some of those I had already stopped long ago due to costs.If they were going to the office they would
1. Buy fuel /train ticket /bus ticket
2. Parking costs
3. Office attire maybe new shirts shoes every 6 months.
4. Maybe a coffee on the way in.
5. Lunch snacks stroll round town buying the odd thing /unrequited purchases.
6. Maybe after work drinks every now and again
7. Grab a take away.
8. Possible taxis now and again.
9. I often pass holiday shops and outdoor pursuit shops and pop in browse ditto clothes shops and hairdressers now none.
10. Maybe a pub/pizza/etc lunch with the boss/team/subordinate.
11. Maybe lunch with a friend or coffee and cake.
Now stop ALL of the above spend. Instead increase weekly grocery spend a tiny tiny bit more electric cost at home. You’ll be wearing out non work clothes but no issue I wearing some rather Tatty kit/ replacing clothes every as and when required. Multiply that one individual by everyone who can work at home is a HUGE problem.
Food/grocery games hobby kit house decoration gardening trips out.
A few nights out here and there for drinks usually resulted in an appalling wait in a grotty taxi waiting room at the station at midnight because they never let you book a cab it was first come first serve. As train fares continued to rise it was not worth it for what were average nights out at best, so I reduced the nights out and switched to meal and maybe one glass of wine rather than drinks so that I could drive home. Once in that habit even the arrival of Uber could not tempt me.
Then the coffees, sandwiches, breakfasts etc all now brought in from home. It can save you anything from £500 to a few £K easily per year. Simply to offset the ever increasing cost of commuting to work. Trouble is once you are in the routine its almost a chore not preparing your own lunch.
They are going to need to do something pretty drastic with commuting expenses among others - if they want people, assuming WFH does dry up, to go back to spending big.
The thing is once you stop doing these things and realise how much money you are saving you are unlikely to ever go back to spending on them again. I am sure working from home has been a revelation for a lot of people and they can't believe how much money they wasted each month.
If this is the case then the economy is going to be pretty decimated, we can already see it with the number of casual dining chains going into meltdown.
I am pretty sure the initial excitement of shops and pubs being open is going to wear off very quickly and they not be getting enough revenue to survive.
Successive governments have promoted it, not least because it masks the decline in manufacturing (as a proportion of employment) and the fact that single-earner households are no longer viable.
Basically we've created a high-cost, high-wage economy that's built on sand. Turn the clock back 40 years and not only were there fewer people; most families had a single bread-winner.
Unless we can balance our economy, boosting productive industries with desirable offerings (given that Brexit means we've lost our border-free local market) then, frankly, that old Sun headline about "will the last person out of the country turn out the light" might finally be true.
I was talking to neighbours this weekend; professionals with decent businesses. Leaving the UK was high on everyone's agenda...
monkfish1 said:
Thats definitely one advantage farm shops have. You can park, easily, and for free.
To do a full on weekly big shop in a farm shop - say for a family of 5 - is extremely expensive. However the food is certainly nicer - I love our local butchers will try to continue to get meat there. But where are the fishmongers these days? I fancied octopus and mackerel on the BBQ the other day no chance sadly.
skwdenyer said:
I was talking to neighbours this weekend; professionals with decent businesses. Leaving the UK was high on everyone's agenda...
I’m curious, where are they thinking of going ? I say that as someone who has got out and I’m not sure anywhere is going to escape the coming s
tstorm snuffy said:
PF62 said:
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all.
Good point. I will not enter any shop that does not display it's prices. I actually made that mistake about 2 years ago, going into a tiny independent jewelers where no prices were displayed. I wanted a ring for the missus. The bloke was a total arse, implying that I could not afford what I wanted. I can afford it mate, I'm just not buying anything from you.
defblade said:
snuffy said:
PF62 said:
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all.
Good point. I will not enter any shop that does not display it's prices. I actually made that mistake about 2 years ago, going into a tiny independent jewelers where no prices were displayed. I wanted a ring for the missus. The bloke was a total arse, implying that I could not afford what I wanted. I can afford it mate, I'm just not buying anything from you.
defblade said:
snuffy said:
PF62 said:
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all.
Good point. I will not enter any shop that does not display it's prices. I actually made that mistake about 2 years ago, going into a tiny independent jewelers where no prices were displayed. I wanted a ring for the missus. The bloke was a total arse, implying that I could not afford what I wanted. I can afford it mate, I'm just not buying anything from you.
But here's a good example of just the opposite I had in Moss Bros in Chester; I saw a suit in the window and trotted in to see about it.The manager said the cut of it was such that it would not fit me (i.e. it was a very slim cut - at least he was honest !). Then he suggested another one. I said I liked it and he told me the price. "Ah" I said. "A bit more than you were looking to pay Sir?" "Well, yes, as it happens." "Let me see what I can do for you". Then he did a load of tap-tapping on his till screen, because, he said, he was the manager, so he could discount it as he saw fit. "How do £x sound?" "That sounds fine to me, I will take it".
soxboy said:
hyphen said:
Each john Lewis department store will pay several millions in business rates. An amazon warehouse out of town may pay £100k. Because in the old world, online shopping wasn't accounted for when setting rates.
John Lewis rates bill £57m (20% just from Oxford Street) across 50 stores. 20 stores pay more than £1m.Amazon rates bill £63m on 94 buildings.
John Lewis is one of the last great experience shops but that is it. The rest are on hiding to nothing. Small indy places still have a role but not for mainstream products. So bike shops, bakers, high end products, wedding shops, florists etc. But Debanhams, like Comet, house of Fraser and even Dixons on high st days are numbered
Gweeds said:
Getting companies like Amazon to actually pay decent amounts of tax would be a start.
It’s a lack of political will. They’re doing what they’re allowed to. So stop them being able to.
Its not Amazons fault we have a culture in the UK of fIt’s a lack of political will. They’re doing what they’re allowed to. So stop them being able to.
king over small business and workers its our leaders. In the US there are many small and mid size firms they have a culture that supports that. Just watch half the discovery channel shows pimp my bbq forged wars etc. In the uk the government and local government just looks at you as a cash cow until you get really big then you get honours and they fawn over you (Lord Dyson springs to mind).Josiah Wedgwood invented the whole range of direct sales techniques in the 18th Century, the mail order catalogue was invented around the same time, and 200 years later people are complaining about something that's more or less the direct electronic successor.
If someone else has a better business model then you adapt or you die. What you shouldn't expect is someone fiddling with the tax system to try to make your retail model viable at the customers expense.
Complicated cross border tax planning is something altogether different, but even then it's not exactly unexpected for any business or person to try to pay the minimum that's legally due. If there's a problem then close the loopholes, but don't do something stupid to 'level the playing field' for one or two targeted businesses.
If someone else has a better business model then you adapt or you die. What you shouldn't expect is someone fiddling with the tax system to try to make your retail model viable at the customers expense.
Complicated cross border tax planning is something altogether different, but even then it's not exactly unexpected for any business or person to try to pay the minimum that's legally due. If there's a problem then close the loopholes, but don't do something stupid to 'level the playing field' for one or two targeted businesses.
pquinn said:
Josiah Wedgwood invented the whole range of direct sales techniques in the 18th Century, the mail order catalogue was invented around the same time, and 200 years later people are complaining about something that's more or less the direct electronic successor.
If someone else has a better business model then you adapt or you die. What you shouldn't expect is someone fiddling with the tax system to try to make your retail model viable at the customers expense.
Complicated cross border tax planning is something altogether different, but even then it's not exactly unexpected for any business or person to try to pay the minimum that's legally due. If there's a problem then close the loopholes, but don't do something stupid to 'level the playing field' for one or two targeted businesses.
IR35 recent changes did just that so one client pays me via an umbrella company where 52% is then lost in tax, and two other clients pay my company direct so all costs are taken first. The argument is people doing the same job pay the same tax. So taking that to the next stage if you sell TV's (John Lewis) then you should all pay the same tax (amazon) but you don't actually operate in the same way online distribution v a fixed high st presence and address (Contractor providing all own trianing and equipment v a perm member of staff at the company).If someone else has a better business model then you adapt or you die. What you shouldn't expect is someone fiddling with the tax system to try to make your retail model viable at the customers expense.
Complicated cross border tax planning is something altogether different, but even then it's not exactly unexpected for any business or person to try to pay the minimum that's legally due. If there's a problem then close the loopholes, but don't do something stupid to 'level the playing field' for one or two targeted businesses.
Its this sort of aim for equality of outcome not opportunity that is the flaw in most tax and government thinking. I happen to love John Lewis even bought a tablet from them for work during lock down via telephone order service. But many other retailers I just don't have much of a care for. I can buy cloths online, food online, electrical goods, fitness equipment, household items and power tools. I really don't need to go into town to do that and making online as expensive is not ging to encourage me to do that.
Some people love shopping its a leisure activity for them and that is great if there are enough to support it then it will continue the government should not create artificial demand but should look to create jobs in new areas.
Why does Germany Japan and the US all have leading electronics brands (made in China no doubt), why were the worlds leading search engines made in america not the UK the country which invented the WWW. Why do countries like Frnace have a car industry (PSA, Renault etc) and the UK (Rover) not what did we do wring why did people in Italy not want a rover 75 (it may have been a bit s
t). Look at those questions, look at school programs and university courses an change those so the next amazon, google, facebook, snapchat, zoom, whatsapp, tableau, amazon, is a product of the UK and then maybe we can all stop this tax you till you have nothing mentality.
Gecko1978 said:
soxboy said:
hyphen said:
Each john Lewis department store will pay several millions in business rates. An amazon warehouse out of town may pay £100k. Because in the old world, online shopping wasn't accounted for when setting rates.
John Lewis rates bill £57m (20% just from Oxford Street) across 50 stores. 20 stores pay more than £1m.Amazon rates bill £63m on 94 buildings.
John Lewis is one of the last great experience shops but that is it. The rest are on hiding to nothing. Small indy places still have a role but not for mainstream products. So bike shops, bakers, high end products, wedding shops, florists etc. But Debanhams, like Comet, house of Fraser and even Dixons on high st days are numbered
The John Lewis model is based on the high st. Arguably, that rental tone has fallen over the last 5 years, but since rating assessments are based on April 2015, they are caught by the lag.
There are mechanisms to challenge the list and many advisory firms are. Despite attempts by Government to incentivise them to defend assessments, the VOA take an old school approach and aim to ensure the Rating List is fair.
To those of you fawning over farm shops, you do realise that much of their stock is bought in chilled or frozen from wholesalers such as Weddel Swift? The notion that some have of farmer Giles breeding his own personal cows then chopping them up in the back to sell fresh in his farm shop display cabinet is about as far detached from reality as it gets. It's just not cost effective for them to do it. I do livestock transport as a sideline job and the vast majority of cattle, pigs and sheep get carted off to an abattoir for the commercial markets. I'm regularly at Woodhead's at Colne and occasionally Dunbia at Sawley abattoirs from farms all over Lancs.
For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
The mention of the word "farm" somewhere on the label gives people a warm, fuzzy feeling that they're supporting their local farmers, but it's all a load of nonsense and marketing guff. Hence why Tesco changed their pork branding to Woodside Farms - a completely ficticious "farm" but people think because it's got the word "farm" on the label then it must be good quality when the reality is that it's their lowest grade budget range pork offering, imported from the other side of the world from poor welfare producers and tastes like utter garbage.
Buyer beware!
For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
The mention of the word "farm" somewhere on the label gives people a warm, fuzzy feeling that they're supporting their local farmers, but it's all a load of nonsense and marketing guff. Hence why Tesco changed their pork branding to Woodside Farms - a completely ficticious "farm" but people think because it's got the word "farm" on the label then it must be good quality when the reality is that it's their lowest grade budget range pork offering, imported from the other side of the world from poor welfare producers and tastes like utter garbage.
Buyer beware!
Edited by Lemming Train on Tuesday 7th July 21:49
Gecko1978 said:
Look at those questions, look at school programs and university courses an change those so the next amazon, google, facebook, snapchat, zoom, whatsapp, tableau, amazon, is a product of the UK and then maybe we can all stop this tax you till you have nothing mentality.
The most popular post-16 IT course we run is now Application design / Product development / Web design - they learn the basics of systems design and then go through the whole software life cycle and build a mobile app and a website. I've got 26 students in this year's Year 12 class as opposed to 11 in Computer Science A-Level, which most only do now if they want to study Computer Science in higher education.Lemming Train said:
To those of you fawning over farm shops, you do realise that much of their stock is bought in chilled or frozen from wholesalers such as Weddel Swift? The notion that some have of farmer Giles breeding his own personal cows then chopping them up in the back to sell fresh in his farm shop display cabinet is about as far detached from reality as it gets. It's just not cost effective for them to do it. I do livestock transport as a sideline job and the vast majority of cattle, pigs and sheep get carted off to an abattoir for the commercial markets. I'm regularly at Woodhead's at Colne and occasionally Dunbia at Sawley abattoirs from farms all over Lancs.
For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
The fresh red meat at our local farm shop all comes from their own farm (pork all year, lamb when available) or one a couple of miles up the road (beef). You can always tell as they run out on a regular basis if you're not there early! The poultry is packaged as "local" but always seems to be a bit bland so we get a whole chicken from the Iceland delivery (surprisingly good quality as well).For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
skwdenyer said:
Successive governments have promoted it, not least because it masks the decline in manufacturing (as a proportion of employment) and the fact that single-earner households are no longer viable.
Basically we've created a high-cost,high-wage low wage economy that's built on sand. Turn the clock back 40 years and not only were there fewer people; most families had a single bread-winner.
FTFY.Basically we've created a high-cost,
Lemming Train said:
To those of you fawning over farm shops, you do realise that much of their stock is bought in chilled or frozen from wholesalers such as Weddel Swift? The notion that some have of farmer Giles breeding his own personal cows then chopping them up in the back to sell fresh in his farm shop display cabinet is about as far detached from reality as it gets. It's just not cost effective for them to do it. I do livestock transport as a sideline job and the vast majority of cattle, pigs and sheep get carted off to an abattoir for the commercial markets. I'm regularly at Woodhead's at Colne and occasionally Dunbia at Sawley abattoirs from farms all over Lancs.
For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
The mention of the word "farm" somewhere on the label gives people a warm, fuzzy feeling that they're supporting their local farmers, but it's all a load of nonsense and marketing guff. Hence why Tesco changed their pork branding to Woodside Farms - a completely ficticious "farm" but people think because it's got the word "farm" on the label then it must be good quality when the reality is that it's their lowest grade budget range pork offering, imported from the other side of the world from poor welfare producers and tastes like utter garbage.
Buyer beware!
Stop it. Stop it now.For poultry, whilst not my area of expertise, I do know for a fact that some farm shops buy it in wholesale from 2 Sisters - the same company that supply the big supermarket chains such as Tesco. It's the exact same stuff!
The mention of the word "farm" somewhere on the label gives people a warm, fuzzy feeling that they're supporting their local farmers, but it's all a load of nonsense and marketing guff. Hence why Tesco changed their pork branding to Woodside Farms - a completely ficticious "farm" but people think because it's got the word "farm" on the label then it must be good quality when the reality is that it's their lowest grade budget range pork offering, imported from the other side of the world from poor welfare producers and tastes like utter garbage.
Buyer beware!
Edited by Lemming Train on Tuesday 7th July 21:49
Please tell me Mr Kipling is individually icing the cream slices and Colonel Sanders is mixing up those tasty herbs and spices?
But you are correct. Tell someone an egg is from a chicken running round a field and it’s delicious. Yell em the same egg has been battery produced it’s foul ( pun intended)
The truth is most can’t tell the difference except in their pocket.
PBCD said:
skwdenyer said:
Successive governments have promoted it, not least because it masks the decline in manufacturing (as a proportion of employment) and the fact that single-earner households are no longer viable.
Basically we've created a high-cost,high-wage low wage economy that's built on sand. Turn the clock back 40 years and not only were there fewer people; most families had a single bread-winner.
FTFY.Basically we've created a high-cost,
pretty much it, we have seen limited wage inflation since the 70s in the uk and in the this century its been non existent or gone backwards for many.....course tax has gone up and the government are happy to redistribute through credits which keep wages low.
owner of my local bike shop said other day in 25 years he has never felt the government have done anything to activly help small business. Kind of damming i felt as he has been successful (25 years int he game) but never felt supported - unlike huge firms who got billions in goverment money recently.
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