2020 Retailers in trouble thread
Discussion
hyphen said:
Each john Lewis department store will pay several millions in business rates. An amazon warehouse out of town may pay £100k. Because in the old world, online shopping wasn't accounted for when setting rates.
John Lewis rates bill £57m (20% just from Oxford Street) across 50 stores. 20 stores pay more than £1m.Amazon rates bill £63m on 94 buildings.
Harry H said:
It's not about uncompetitive for the consumer. The high street has been raped for years on the local council tax. Most people have no idea how much tax these small shops pay.
I often wonder how much small retailers have to take each day just to make it worth opening the door. When you see these shops that sell nothing but cards, stationary and novelty gifts (think past times crossed with paper chase with a hipster vibe) I do wonder how they are even in business.Joey Deacon said:
Harry H said:
It's not about uncompetitive for the consumer. The high street has been raped for years on the local council tax. Most people have no idea how much tax these small shops pay.
I often wonder how much small retailers have to take each day just to make it worth opening the door. When you see these shops that sell nothing but cards, stationary and novelty gifts (think past times crossed with paper chase with a hipster vibe) I do wonder how they are even in business.Which is why i guess there ios considerable churn at this end of the market.
Lots of people with bold ideas, that simply dont survive reality.
Gecko1978 said:
hyphen said:
dmahon said:
For me it’s more the customer service. I would happily pay more for knowledgeable and helpful staff, fast service, good returns policy etc in addition to stock and opening hours.
A lot of people just don't get the above, especially the first bit.When people buy an expensive telly, many don't want to go and research the different screen types, hdmi specs and so on.
I went to Currys the other day, and the car park was half full during daytime weekday, as people want to ask questions and get recommendations from a human.
It's how many people are. And why bricks and mortar will continue fine, if the government level the playing field.
Seems to me the High st needs to offer the experience over the price that is only way to compete, any intervention is anti free market to be honest and long term hurts consumers an business as in the end someone finds a way around it (recall people going to Europe an ordering RHD cars)
Its never going to return to the thriving row of independants that local councils dream of whilst simutaneusly deliberately destroying them.
Artifically making everything else more expensive is never going to fly and benefits almost no one.
The simple reality is, online shopping is simply easier and usually cheaper. It also saves time, cost and frustration. Even with an artificial tax, it will still be all those things except, maybe the cheaper bit.
Chuck in the new restrictions brought about by Covid, why would anyone even think about going to a high street/shopping centre?
eldar said:
FN2TypeR said:
Internet retail tax required immediately. Mike Ashley, despite being a bit of a tool, touted it to a Select Committee years ago, clearly they did nothing.
Prop up a dinosaur industry by taxing the replacement actually want and use. Yeah, that’ll work...However a surcharge on large distribution depots rating assessments paying for increased allowances on high street rating assessments may make some difference.
Ultimately though it's high street rents that are too high. Problem is the adjustment is painful to landlords and pension institutions.
monkfish1 said:
I do frequently when somewhere wonder this myself. I see shops come up for rent, and the ad often listes the rates bill too. Add the 2 together, chuck in some wages and its pretty obvious that it often doesnt work.
Which is why i guess there ios considerable churn at this end of the market.
Lots of people with bold ideas, that simply dont survive reality.
The other one is Restaurants that continually open up on the same site. It seems to be.Which is why i guess there ios considerable churn at this end of the market.
Lots of people with bold ideas, that simply dont survive reality.
1)Restaurant takes over the site where numerous restaurants have failed.
2)Complete refurbishment
3)Restaurant is busy for the first 2 weeks
4)Restaurant has less and less tables each weekend until there are 3 tables on a Friday night.
5)Six months in Restaurant closes down
Rinse and repeat.
I know nothing about opening a Restaurant but even I can spot this when a new one opens up, what makes the restaurant owner so convinced they can make a go of it where numerous others have failed.
Joey Deacon said:
monkfish1 said:
I do frequently when somewhere wonder this myself. I see shops come up for rent, and the ad often listes the rates bill too. Add the 2 together, chuck in some wages and its pretty obvious that it often doesnt work.
Which is why i guess there ios considerable churn at this end of the market.
Lots of people with bold ideas, that simply dont survive reality.
The other one is Restaurants that continually open up on the same site. It seems to be.Which is why i guess there ios considerable churn at this end of the market.
Lots of people with bold ideas, that simply dont survive reality.
1)Restaurant takes over the site where numerous restaurants have failed.
2)Complete refurbishment
3)Restaurant is busy for the first 2 weeks
4)Restaurant has less and less tables each weekend until there are 3 tables on a Friday night.
5)Six months in Restaurant closes down
Rinse and repeat.
I know nothing about opening a Restaurant but even I can spot this when a new one opens up, what makes the restaurant owner so convinced they can make a go of it where numerous others have failed.
They are also often opened by chefs who are both convinced that the food is all that matters and that as they're the greatest chef ever, build it and they will come.
Sadly they don't teach business at culinary school.
See this in loads of service industries...being good at a service does not a businessperson make.
eldar said:
Prop up a dinosaur industry by taxing the replacement actually want and use. Yeah, that’ll work...
It's not about propping up any industry I'm all for survival of the fittest. It's about evening up the playing field. The percentage tax take for small business retail is much higher that that of multinational internet trading companies. People want to use this replacement industry because it's cheaper and more efficient to some. It can afford to be because it pays less tax.
monkfish1 said:
Its never going to return to the thriving row of independants that local councils dream of whilst simutaneusly deliberately destroying them.
It isn’t just competing against internet retailers that independents are crap, but against their large high street competitors.A new independent butchers opened in my town. Great and the meat looks good, but... they have very few customers.
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all. Now for the powerfully built directors here the cost of their steak is irrelevant, and the argument will be ‘you can ask’. But people don’t. So they don’t go in and the shop is empty.
And that is before you get to the issue of it opening the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and mornings only on Saturday - and this (pre-COVID) is in a commuter town where a good chunk of their customers are normally in London whenever they are open. So those people continue to go to Waitrose next door who are open later.
PF62 said:
A new independent butchers opened in my town. Great and the meat looks good, but... they have very few customers.
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all. Now for the powerfully built directors here the cost of their steak is irrelevant, and the argument will be ‘you can ask’. But people don’t. So they don’t go in and the shop is empty.
And that is before you get to the issue of it opening the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and mornings only on Saturday - and this (pre-COVID) is in a commuter town where a good chunk of their customers are normally in London whenever they are open. So those people continue to go to Waitrose next door who are open later.
Things like that just scream of arrogance to me.Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all. Now for the powerfully built directors here the cost of their steak is irrelevant, and the argument will be ‘you can ask’. But people don’t. So they don’t go in and the shop is empty.
And that is before you get to the issue of it opening the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and mornings only on Saturday - and this (pre-COVID) is in a commuter town where a good chunk of their customers are normally in London whenever they are open. So those people continue to go to Waitrose next door who are open later.
"My meat is the best so people will dance to my tune for it...cause I'm the bestess butcher evaaaa"
surveyor said:
eldar said:
FN2TypeR said:
Internet retail tax required immediately. Mike Ashley, despite being a bit of a tool, touted it to a Select Committee years ago, clearly they did nothing.
Prop up a dinosaur industry by taxing the replacement actually want and use. Yeah, that’ll work...However a surcharge on large distribution depots rating assessments paying for increased allowances on high street rating assessments may make some difference.
Ultimately though it's high street rents that are too high. Problem is the adjustment is painful to landlords and pension institutions.
PF62 said:
It isn’t just competing against internet retailers that independents are crap, but against their large high street competitors.
A new independent butchers opened in my town. Great and the meat looks good, but... they have very few customers.
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all. Now for the powerfully built directors here the cost of their steak is irrelevant, and the argument will be ‘you can ask’. But people don’t. So they don’t go in and the shop is empty.
And that is before you get to the issue of it opening the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and mornings only on Saturday - and this (pre-COVID) is in a commuter town where a good chunk of their customers are normally in London whenever they are open. So those people continue to go to Waitrose next door who are open later.
Where I used to work in Putney, on the top floor of the Putney Exchange there was a large traditional toy shop right next door to Argos. The Toy Shop was very middle class, a very nice shop to browse in. However, they were always £5 or £10 more expensive than Argos so I would look at the toys in the toy shop then go next door to Argos and buy them from there. Surprisingly enough the Toy Shop ended up closing down.A new independent butchers opened in my town. Great and the meat looks good, but... they have very few customers.
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all. Now for the powerfully built directors here the cost of their steak is irrelevant, and the argument will be ‘you can ask’. But people don’t. So they don’t go in and the shop is empty.
And that is before you get to the issue of it opening the traditional 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and mornings only on Saturday - and this (pre-COVID) is in a commuter town where a good chunk of their customers are normally in London whenever they are open. So those people continue to go to Waitrose next door who are open later.
Having no prices on anything is an interesting point, I would never ask either as I don't want the awkwardness of it being way more expensive than I thought and then either feeling like I have to buy it anyway or making my excuses and leaving.
Joey Deacon said:
Having no prices on anything is an interesting point, I would never ask either as I don't want the awkwardness of it being way more expensive than I thought and then either feeling like I have to buy it anyway or making my excuses and leaving.
Exactly. Their competitor next door, Waitrose, understands this and even where the meat is priced per kilo will still have individual cuts with a label saying ‘this piece costs £x’ as they understand that people can’t visualise what the weight of a decent cut of meat looks like and that is even if they can then do the maths to work out the price.Meanwhile Mr Independent Butcher has no customers and will moan about how unfair it is that the big retailers are putting him out of business.
Harry H said:
eldar said:
Prop up a dinosaur industry by taxing the replacement actually want and use. Yeah, that’ll work...
It's not about propping up any industry I'm all for survival of the fittest. It's about evening up the playing field. The percentage tax take for small business retail is much higher that that of multinational internet trading companies. People want to use this replacement industry because it's cheaper and more efficient to some. It can afford to be because it pays less tax.
Even if there were no rent or rates, thus allowing them to reduce their prices a bit. (they will still have other overheads)
It wont make much difference. They still wont have the range of products in stock that the internet offers. Its impossible. I will still have to spend my valuable time going there, shopping and coming back. I still need to use the car (or some other transport) to get there. That has a cost. And many are only open at a time when most of the population are working.
And thats before we get to utterly disinterested staff with no concept of customer service. The whole thing is mostly a throughly miserable and frustrating experience.
Its just better buying online in most cases. The disadvantages of physical shops, i dont believe are "overcomable" even if the will was there.
As it happens, its also considerably "greener" that the alternative. One van delivering 50 packages is much more ecologically sound that 50 people all going to the shops. On that basis alone, "saving" the high street runs directly counter to the stated government objectives.
Edited by monkfish1 on Tuesday 7th July 11:41
monkfish1 said:
We should just accept that its over for the high street and find something else to do with it.
Its never going to return to the thriving row of independants that local councils dream of whilst simutaneusly deliberately destroying them.
Artifically making everything else more expensive is never going to fly and benefits almost no one.
The simple reality is, online shopping is simply easier and usually cheaper. It also saves time, cost and frustration. Even with an artificial tax, it will still be all those things except, maybe the cheaper bit.
Chuck in the new restrictions brought about by Covid, why would anyone even think about going to a high street/shopping centre?
Mrs BC and I went to a Big shopping centre yesterday. Many of the shops weren’t allowing trying on which is surely a major usp for the shops.Its never going to return to the thriving row of independants that local councils dream of whilst simutaneusly deliberately destroying them.
Artifically making everything else more expensive is never going to fly and benefits almost no one.
The simple reality is, online shopping is simply easier and usually cheaper. It also saves time, cost and frustration. Even with an artificial tax, it will still be all those things except, maybe the cheaper bit.
Chuck in the new restrictions brought about by Covid, why would anyone even think about going to a high street/shopping centre?
surveyor said:
Internet retail tax will send US off the deep end.
However a surcharge on large distribution depots rating assessments paying for increased allowances on high street rating assessments may make some difference.
Ultimately though it's high street rents that are too high. Problem is the adjustment is painful to landlords and pension institutions.
I suspect too many local councils are wedded to the pre online days when they had a monopoly.However a surcharge on large distribution depots rating assessments paying for increased allowances on high street rating assessments may make some difference.
Ultimately though it's high street rents that are too high. Problem is the adjustment is painful to landlords and pension institutions.
They are finding it difficult to adapt to the realities of today.
PF62 said:
Perhaps that has something to do with nothing in the shop being priced. Nothing at all.
Good point. I will not enter any shop that does not display it's prices. I actually made that mistake about 2 years ago, going into a tiny independent jewelers where no prices were displayed. I wanted a ring for the missus. The bloke was a total arse, implying that I could not afford what I wanted. I can afford it mate, I'm just not buying anything from you.
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