What is the one thing London needs most?
Discussion
Hosenbugler said:
Having said that , the main cause of poor air qulaity in London is wood burners. I suppose it's easier for them to bully vehicle owners.
Interesting how much the breakdown of pollutant sources has changed since 2013 then, when road transport was by far the main source - have you a link to the research please?https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/sites/default/fi...
s1962a said:
In any case, cleaner air is a good thing.
Nobody objects to cleaner air- the question is the balance between cost & quantitative improvement. There will be a point where people won't want to pay huge cost increases for minor improvements, that point varying based predominantly on disposable income.Agammemnon said:
s1962a said:
In any case, cleaner air is a good thing.
Nobody objects to cleaner air- the question is the balance between cost & quantitative improvement. There will be a point where people won't want to pay huge cost increases for minor improvements, that point varying based predominantly on disposable income.otolith said:
Hosenbugler said:
Having said that , the main cause of poor air qulaity in London is wood burners. I suppose it's easier for them to bully vehicle owners.
Interesting how much the breakdown of pollutant sources has changed since 2013 then, when road transport was by far the main source - have you a link to the research please?https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/sites/default/fi...
A quick google revealed these
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4573185/open-firepla...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/2...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38746...
The note about Copenhagen in the BBC link is interesting.
Khan is quoted by the Gruanaid "Non-transport sources contribute half of the deadly emissions in London so we need a hard-hitting plan of action to combat them similar to moves I am taking to reduce pollution from road vehicles,”
None of them unfortunately do not list the causes in severity, as the article did I commented from, but rest assured woodburners were listed as far and away the biggest single cause of air probs in London.
Hosenbugler said:
I'm afarid I don't, the article explaining such was linked to on one of the threads on this forum, in the last year . It was interesting as it compared the various causes of the air problem, stoves came out the highest.
A quick google revealed these
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4573185/open-firepla...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/2...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38746...
The note about Copenhagen in the BBC link is interesting.
Khan is quoted by the Gruanaid "Non-transport sources contribute half of the deadly emissions in London so we need a hard-hitting plan of action to combat them similar to moves I am taking to reduce pollution from road vehicles,”
None of them unfortunately do not list the causes in severity, as the article did I commented from, but rest assured woodburners were listed as far and away the biggest single cause of air probs in London.
Strange I’ve not seen too many wood burning fumes emanating from the office and apartment block chimneys in most of central a London. A quick google revealed these
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4573185/open-firepla...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/2...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38746...
The note about Copenhagen in the BBC link is interesting.
Khan is quoted by the Gruanaid "Non-transport sources contribute half of the deadly emissions in London so we need a hard-hitting plan of action to combat them similar to moves I am taking to reduce pollution from road vehicles,”
None of them unfortunately do not list the causes in severity, as the article did I commented from, but rest assured woodburners were listed as far and away the biggest single cause of air probs in London.
Possibly in the suburbs it may be different.
I would be interested to see the detailed statistics.
Nickgnome said:
Hosenbugler said:
I'm afarid I don't, the article explaining such was linked to on one of the threads on this forum, in the last year . It was interesting as it compared the various causes of the air problem, stoves came out the highest.
A quick google revealed these
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4573185/open-firepla...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/2...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38746...
The note about Copenhagen in the BBC link is interesting.
Khan is quoted by the Gruanaid "Non-transport sources contribute half of the deadly emissions in London so we need a hard-hitting plan of action to combat them similar to moves I am taking to reduce pollution from road vehicles,”
None of them unfortunately do not list the causes in severity, as the article did I commented from, but rest assured woodburners were listed as far and away the biggest single cause of air probs in London.
Strange I’ve not seen too many wood burning fumes emanating from the office and apartment block chimneys in most of central a London. A quick google revealed these
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4573185/open-firepla...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/2...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38746...
The note about Copenhagen in the BBC link is interesting.
Khan is quoted by the Gruanaid "Non-transport sources contribute half of the deadly emissions in London so we need a hard-hitting plan of action to combat them similar to moves I am taking to reduce pollution from road vehicles,”
None of them unfortunately do not list the causes in severity, as the article did I commented from, but rest assured woodburners were listed as far and away the biggest single cause of air probs in London.
Possibly in the suburbs it may be different.
I would be interested to see the detailed statistics.
Wood burning stoves in built up areas are definitely an emissions problem and liable to get banned - I just wasn't aware that on aggregate there were enough of them to be making a significant contribution compared to the other sources. Non-gas domestic and industrial heating was 2%-3% of total PM10 or NOx in London only 7 years ago, compared to 50%-53% for road traffic. For it to have grown from 2%-3% to more than 50% in 7 years sounds a bit unlikely.
https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/p...
"How much of this PM2.5 is due to wood burning?
Wood burning is mostly seasonal so the contribution changes across the year. In summer months the amount of pollution caused by solid fuel burning can be very low, but in winter wood burning can contribute up to 10 per cent of local emissions in London.
In January 2017 pollution from wood burning was a major contributor to the highest levels of pollution recorded in London since 2011, resulting in a winter smog episode lasting for nine days"
"How much of this PM2.5 is due to wood burning?
Wood burning is mostly seasonal so the contribution changes across the year. In summer months the amount of pollution caused by solid fuel burning can be very low, but in winter wood burning can contribute up to 10 per cent of local emissions in London.
In January 2017 pollution from wood burning was a major contributor to the highest levels of pollution recorded in London since 2011, resulting in a winter smog episode lasting for nine days"
Camoradi said:
https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/p...
"How much of this PM2.5 is due to wood burning?
Wood burning is mostly seasonal so the contribution changes across the year. In summer months the amount of pollution caused by solid fuel burning can be very low, but in winter wood burning can contribute up to 10 per cent of local emissions in London.
In January 2017 pollution from wood burning was a major contributor to the highest levels of pollution recorded in London since 2011, resulting in a winter smog episode lasting for nine days"
So at worst up to 10% so nothing like the majority as Hosenbugler was stating. "How much of this PM2.5 is due to wood burning?
Wood burning is mostly seasonal so the contribution changes across the year. In summer months the amount of pollution caused by solid fuel burning can be very low, but in winter wood burning can contribute up to 10 per cent of local emissions in London.
In January 2017 pollution from wood burning was a major contributor to the highest levels of pollution recorded in London since 2011, resulting in a winter smog episode lasting for nine days"
i4got said:
Nickgnome said:
So at worst up to 10% so nothing like the majority as Hosenbugler was stating.
He said largest single contributor I believe. Something can be 10% and and still be largest single cause.As I said before not too many wood burners in the City or West end or anywhere in between.
I’d like to know how all those wood burners function in the massive developments of flats from Stratford, Dockland through to Hounslow and Ealing, not forgetting Battersea.
It appears that 10% is not a realistic figure, it was cerainly way higher than that, from memory of the articlal referred to originally . This is from the BBC link I posted, which is of interest.
"In fact, according to a presentation by The Danish Ecological Council which has looked into the use of wooden stoves: "Just 16,000 wood stoves in Copenhagen (600,000 inhabitants) emit as much fine-particles pollution in one winter, as all traffic emit within one year."
It also says: "New low-emission stoves cause much higher emissions (above 500.000 part/cm3) than new trucks with particulate filters (below 1.000 part/cm3)."
Not London, but would seem a potential parralell. However, having had another quick dig, I found the following.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2655590/london-smog-...
In which we quote: "Wood burning could be banned in London's most polluted areas in a bid to tackle air pollution, under proposals suggested by Sadiq Khan.
Open fireplaces, bonfires and wood burning stoves would be prohibited and only sales of low-emission stoves allowed.
London Mayor Khan wrote to Environment Secretary Michael Gove seeking the new laws.
The move comes after it was revealed that up to a third of all fine particle pollution in London comes from domestic wood burning.
Mr Khan wants to “protect those who have bought stoves in good faith” but requested powers to ban the burning of any wood or coal in “zero-emission zones”.
Zones could be created in 187 areas of the capital where pollution exceeds European limits."
Up to a third, not 10% , and , perhaps crucially , specific to 187 areas of the capital.
I wish I could find the article I originally referred from as it was very comprehensive and learned. I sometimes bookmark such stuff, but does not seem so in this case. Thats a problem, bookmark everything of interest and you have too many, and cannot find stuff. Catch 22, sadly.
"In fact, according to a presentation by The Danish Ecological Council which has looked into the use of wooden stoves: "Just 16,000 wood stoves in Copenhagen (600,000 inhabitants) emit as much fine-particles pollution in one winter, as all traffic emit within one year."
It also says: "New low-emission stoves cause much higher emissions (above 500.000 part/cm3) than new trucks with particulate filters (below 1.000 part/cm3)."
Not London, but would seem a potential parralell. However, having had another quick dig, I found the following.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2655590/london-smog-...
In which we quote: "Wood burning could be banned in London's most polluted areas in a bid to tackle air pollution, under proposals suggested by Sadiq Khan.
Open fireplaces, bonfires and wood burning stoves would be prohibited and only sales of low-emission stoves allowed.
London Mayor Khan wrote to Environment Secretary Michael Gove seeking the new laws.
The move comes after it was revealed that up to a third of all fine particle pollution in London comes from domestic wood burning.
Mr Khan wants to “protect those who have bought stoves in good faith” but requested powers to ban the burning of any wood or coal in “zero-emission zones”.
Zones could be created in 187 areas of the capital where pollution exceeds European limits."
Up to a third, not 10% , and , perhaps crucially , specific to 187 areas of the capital.
I wish I could find the article I originally referred from as it was very comprehensive and learned. I sometimes bookmark such stuff, but does not seem so in this case. Thats a problem, bookmark everything of interest and you have too many, and cannot find stuff. Catch 22, sadly.
Hosenbugler said:
Open fireplaces, bonfires and wood burning stoves would be prohibited
If my open fireplace is prohibited then how does this work with my HRA right to quietly enjoy my property?As I paid tax (stamp duty) and council tax based on the value of my home which included said fireplace, does collection of tax not imply approval from government & council of what I bought? I'm not looking for a refund, I'm looking to enjoy what I paid for.
Agammemnon said:
Hosenbugler said:
Open fireplaces, bonfires and wood burning stoves would be prohibited
If my open fireplace is prohibited then how does this work with my HRA right to quietly enjoy my property?As I paid tax (stamp duty) and council tax based on the value of my home which included said fireplace, does collection of tax not imply approval from government & council of what I bought? I'm not looking for a refund, I'm looking to enjoy what I paid for.
Predicated on no emission from your chimney or other opening. In other words breathe your own s
t. fatboy18 said:
Im looking to enjoy what I worked frigging hard for and Paid for too!
351 Windsor Mach 1 Mustang
8ltr Dodge Viper GTS
1,450cc Harley Davidson Fatboy
And a 750 Triumph Bonneville
As long as you personally consume all the gases they produce, enjoy away!! 351 Windsor Mach 1 Mustang
8ltr Dodge Viper GTS
1,450cc Harley Davidson Fatboy
And a 750 Triumph Bonneville
Seriously. There is such a thing as moderation.
fatboy18 said:
Well I can only drive / ride one at a time, I have moderated on house size, I also took the decision not to have a large family (so that has reduced my co2 footprint. And my vehicles are not diesel. 
Well there you go.In my opinion the roads are too crowded to enjoy and my track days are long over.
I have moderated driving down to less than 4,000 per year. In fact I I think 2,500 last year. I like to push bike to the local shops and our farm shop.
Agammemnon said:
Hosenbugler said:
Open fireplaces, bonfires and wood burning stoves would be prohibited
If my open fireplace is prohibited then how does this work with my HRA right to quietly enjoy my property?As I paid tax (stamp duty) and council tax based on the value of my home which included said fireplace, does collection of tax not imply approval from government & council of what I bought? I'm not looking for a refund, I'm looking to enjoy what I paid for.
My firewood comes either from my own trees or, mostly, from a mate's farm, who delivers kiln dried (more CO2 I guess) 1 tonne bags of the stuff to my wood store. Sorted.
I wonder what the CO2 input for firewood deliveries into London might be?
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