New petrol and diesel vehicles sales ban in UK from 2035
Discussion
As i see it the challenge is to allow consumers to pop into a shell plug the car in an 3 mins later be good to go 50% charge etc.
Till the physics of that is resolved mass adoption is a challange. You could put in many more charging points who runs then maintains them how are they secure etc.
Also will many not charge at home and thus kill the demand for shell chargers or council chargers
Till the physics of that is resolved mass adoption is a challange. You could put in many more charging points who runs then maintains them how are they secure etc.
Also will many not charge at home and thus kill the demand for shell chargers or council chargers
Gecko1978 said:
As i see it the challenge is to allow consumers to pop into a shell plug the car in an 3 mins later be good to go 50% charge etc.
Till the physics of that is resolved mass adoption is a challange. You could put in many more charging points who runs then maintains them how are they secure etc.
Also will many not charge at home and thus kill the demand for shell chargers or council chargers
Surely the demand for such communal charging points will be much lower than current demand for petrol/diesel pumps simply because a large proportion of charging will be done at home/work - places where you can't currently add fuel to your car.Till the physics of that is resolved mass adoption is a challange. You could put in many more charging points who runs then maintains them how are they secure etc.
Also will many not charge at home and thus kill the demand for shell chargers or council chargers
oyster said:
Most of the responses on here seem to be based around an irrational fear of change.
The arguments being used are quite bizarre. Listening to some of you, one would be forgiven for thinking everyone drives 100+ mile journeys every day. Everyone lives in rural areas. And no-one can make a journey in any vehicle other than one they entirely own.
There is a legitimate & rational fear amongst rural populations of being left behind by urban-centric proposals. Non-proportional representation ensures that the will of the largest number group dominates...The arguments being used are quite bizarre. Listening to some of you, one would be forgiven for thinking everyone drives 100+ mile journeys every day. Everyone lives in rural areas. And no-one can make a journey in any vehicle other than one they entirely own.
There is a legitimate & rational belief that there's no proper plan to deliver the sort of infrastructure required to achieve the proposed timescales.
There is a legitimate & rational belief that viable alternatives are being ignored (methanol as I've suggested, say, or simple carbon sequestration by oil companies to offset 1:1 the emissions of ICE vehicles at a more prosaic level; there are many others).
Along with a host of other pronouncements, this feels (cynically) like a deliberate attempt to say "see, folks, Boris & Brexit aren't so bad after all" to the majority of voters who did not choose this current political path. That doesn't mean no good will come of it, but it feels ill-thought-through and overtly political right now.
I don't really get the uproar here, by 2035 the banning of new ICE powered cars would be like the banning of VHS recorders today. No one will care because no one buys them anymore.
I am interested to know though how the government plans ot replace all the lost revenue from fuel sales, we'll probably all have to pay a crazy amount of RFL instead.
I am interested to know though how the government plans ot replace all the lost revenue from fuel sales, we'll probably all have to pay a crazy amount of RFL instead.
skwdenyer said:
There is a legitimate & rational belief that there's no proper plan to deliver the sort of infrastructure required to achieve the proposed timescales.
Is it legitimate if it doesnt take into account that there is a plan and work is already underway? https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/media-and-campaigns/p...
Killboy said:
skwdenyer said:
There is a legitimate & rational belief that there's no proper plan to deliver the sort of infrastructure required to achieve the proposed timescales.
Is it legitimate if it doesnt take into account that there is a plan and work is already underway? https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/media-and-campaigns/p...
Piha said:
Those bemoaning the demise of petrol and diesel vehicles need to stop moaning and get behind the idea. If we all get together and support this move, then together, we can make a big success of it.
It's time to stop moaning and time to start supporting....
Only if it is a logical, sensible and workable idea.It's time to stop moaning and time to start supporting....
Just saying "Get with the programme" is rather mad and cultish.
There is a good article on Motor Sport magazine this month which points out that there are versions of the internal combustion engine which may be even cleaner than electric - with none of the possibly insurmountable charging issues.
Pan Pan Pan said:
EV`s are the future, but as they `currently `sit'. they are NOT a substitute for what the public has available at present. This may come with time, but it will require a massive change in infrastructure to make it possible.
Too many people look at EV`s the same way that we currently look at ICE vehicles, and think in terms of having `filling stations' to enable them to be recharged. This is a useless idea, because such stations will be choked with thousands of vehicles trying to get a recharge so that they can carry on with their journeys.
Upgrade motorways to offer wireless charging? Or we could run the cars on electrified rails?Too many people look at EV`s the same way that we currently look at ICE vehicles, and think in terms of having `filling stations' to enable them to be recharged. This is a useless idea, because such stations will be choked with thousands of vehicles trying to get a recharge so that they can carry on with their journeys.
Even better, remove the static tarmac and replace with conveyor belts. Sorted.
With areas of the country still struggling for decent broadband speed 25 years after ADSL, I simply can't see how the charging infrastructure will be rolled out. As someone said above, leafy suburbs with driveways are fairly straightforward to add charging points, but those with no parking / shared parking / regular power cuts.... 15 years is not a long time to deal with problems.
At the same time, Tyneside council, for example, are planning to charge for buses and HGVs to cross the Tyne Bridge, but passenger cars won't be affected. Where's the joined up thinking?
Thinking it's time for me to get a V8 one final time... :-)
(or maybe two and park one up for 10 years or so, to enjoy after the first car dies)
Mark Benson said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The charging of EV`s must be spread out as widely as possible, and not concentrated on the type of stations we currently use for ICE vehicles.
Only when a re charging infrastructure which is built into all the roads, or least the major / most used roads is introduced, so that driver don't have mass around fixed cj charging points like wasps around a honey pot, waiting for a re charge, is introduced will EV`s truly be the equivalent of the current crop of the ICE vehicles we have at present. This position may well come, but much as I like the idea of having an EV, it most definitely is not the case at the present, nor for the foreseeable future.
I've tried to explain this to an EVangelistic Tesla-owning friend - the "You can pop for a cup of coffee while it's charging" argument is only valid if you can actually leave your EV plugged in and charging.Only when a re charging infrastructure which is built into all the roads, or least the major / most used roads is introduced, so that driver don't have mass around fixed cj charging points like wasps around a honey pot, waiting for a re charge, is introduced will EV`s truly be the equivalent of the current crop of the ICE vehicles we have at present. This position may well come, but much as I like the idea of having an EV, it most definitely is not the case at the present, nor for the foreseeable future.
The more EVs we see, the more congestion around charging points will occur. Unless charging takes no longer than filling a tank with fossil fuel or we find a way of charging on the move, we'll end up having to pave over vast areas near service stations just for EV charging, which sort of defeats the point of EVs in the first place.
hutchst said:
Rural populations have driveways. It's urban populations that have problems with EVs.
There are obviously exceptions to prove the rule, but the principle remains.
It's not really about exceptions, it's that you've missed all the stuff that's neither urban or rural. Plenty of terraced housing and other configurations with no off-street parking that's isolated from large population centres and has very limited to zero public transport. There are obviously exceptions to prove the rule, but the principle remains.
It won't shock anyone to learn that these houses are in relatively poor areas and occupied by the people least able to change their lifestyles, absorb the cost of change or pay for an electric vehicle.
skwdenyer said:
Fine words, but I remain to be convinced at the availability of sufficient electricity & infrastructure to deliver it. I don't say it is impossible, but the lack of investment in, say, Nuclear undermines my confidence somewhat.
Let us know how the nuclear conversation goes. 
Eric Mc said:
There is a good article on Motor Sport magazine this month which points out that there are versions of the internal combustion engine which may be even cleaner than electric - with none of the possibly insurmountable charging issues.
Not aimed at you personally Eric, but For f
king fk's Sake!!! Does anyone think this is about cleanliness? This is politics, pure and simple. Until people understand this is zealotry and idealistic reasoning, then you can yell till your blue in the face that keeping an old IC car is greener, having a hybrid is cleaner, there are cleaner petrol engines than electric (given the whole energy cycle). They don't care, we've missed the point, this is about change.Is it greener to run your old Euro 5 car for an extra 5 years or to consume carbon and energy to scrap the old, original carbon sink and buy a split newly built luxury vehicle? If they were really green, we'd be exteding the life of marginally clean cars to save the carbon and energy cost of producing a new one....
paulrockliffe said:
hutchst said:
Rural populations have driveways. It's urban populations that have problems with EVs.
There are obviously exceptions to prove the rule, but the principle remains.
It's not really about exceptions, it's that you've missed all the stuff that's neither urban or rural. Plenty of terraced housing and other configurations with no off-street parking There are obviously exceptions to prove the rule, but the principle remains.
They also have a big stuck approach here though in that taxes on the more polluting cars are crazy, road tax on a 2 litre Euro4 diesel is €1200/year and there are big additional taxes when you buy cars.
If the UK really wants to push electric cars they're going to need to use the carrot and the stick IMO, but so far they only seem to be talking about the stick.
SeeFive said:
Yes why not!! he might as well go the whole nine yards , not stupid he's seen what happens to careers when you don't ..With the chance of getting flamed I think there’s way too much virtue signalling going in Politics and we are in danger of completely losing the plot
It’s all well and good to have zero emissions vehicles driven by wealthy westerners in some of the least polluting countries in the world
But ..that does not address the elephant ( or dragon) in the room
Where is the electricity coming from ?
Where are the rare earth minerals coming from ?
How are they sourced ?
What is the impact of getting all that together in a Tesla ( or whatever)
Driving your Tesla to the organic vegan food shop in your carbon neutral bubble is pretty pathetic if it is achieved by child labour digging huge open cast mines in Africa to achieve it
It’s all well and good to have zero emissions vehicles driven by wealthy westerners in some of the least polluting countries in the world
But ..that does not address the elephant ( or dragon) in the room
Where is the electricity coming from ?
Where are the rare earth minerals coming from ?
How are they sourced ?
What is the impact of getting all that together in a Tesla ( or whatever)
Driving your Tesla to the organic vegan food shop in your carbon neutral bubble is pretty pathetic if it is achieved by child labour digging huge open cast mines in Africa to achieve it
skwdenyer said:
Fine words, but I remain to be convinced at the availability of sufficient electricity & infrastructure to deliver it. I don't say it is impossible, but the lack of investment in, say, Nuclear undermines my confidence somewhat.
Came across this graph which is quite interesting. If the assumption is that the majority of people will be charging their cars overnight i.e. off peak, even if every car magically became battery powered tomorrow, the demand on the grid is still lower than it's overall peak in 2007 (purple line) and not even close to the total capacity (orange line).
The real challenge will be finding a reliable way of getting the power from the grid to the cars themselves. Surely considerable investment is going to be needed in rural areas and for people who don't have a private driveway.
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