Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9

[jtremlett]

Garvin said:

technodup said:

he entire online, print, and broadcast media is going to be commenting on every minute detail of every (alleged) sex offence for as long as the trial goes on for.

Which is going to be fking great for the union. Thanks Alex.

This may be the greatest bit of irony in all political history as the SNP potentially puts pay to itself together with any hope of independence!

I doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

[NoddyonNitrous]

jtremlett said:

doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

Maybe not directly change people's choice in Indyref2, but it'll put some/many off voting SNP, and they're a minority government already with an election next year.

[technodup]

jtremlett said:

doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

That's extremely wishful thinking imo.

Rightly or wrongly the personalities involved have a huge influence on people's opinions and voting intentions. Why do you think they record personal approval ratings? If the chief architect of independence is guilty (and probably even if he isn't- mud sticks) it will inevitably turn people off.

And that's before we talk about his protege...

[Garvin]

technodup said:

jtremlett said:

doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

That's extremely wishful thinking imo.

Rightly or wrongly the personalities involved have a huge influence on people's opinions and voting intentions. Why do you think they record personal approval ratings? If the chief architect of independence is guilty (and probably even if he isn't- mud sticks) it will inevitably turn people off.

And that's before we talk about his protege...

To the die hard ScotNats it will not make any difference, they will come up with all manner of excuses for his behaviour. However, the 'floating voters' will have a hard time justifying to themselves, let alone anyone else, their continued support for, what threatens to be, the exposure of a party with corrupt, disgusting and quite possibly illegal leadership. Throw in the Cherry v Robertson internecine warfare and it all looks increasingly dicey for the SNP to say the least.

[hutchst]

jtremlett said:

doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

Here you go, and only £1.75 with free delivery.

[Evercross]

Garvin said:

To the die hard ScotNats it will not make any difference, they will come up with all manner of excuses for his behaviour. However, the 'floating voters' will have a hard time justifying to themselves, let alone anyone else, their continued support for, what threatens to be, the exposure of a party with corrupt, disgusting and quite possibly illegal leadership. Throw in the Cherry v Robertson internecine warfare and it all looks increasingly dicey for the SNP to say the least.

Not to mention the fallout from the poor judgement and behaviour of high-profile SNP leading lights Derek MacKay and Mhairi Black.

Black was apparently disciplined behind closed doors for the manner in which she defended the 'Flow Job' incident. She claimed to be countering prejudice and stereotypes yet her response was itself asserting a stereotype.

SNP Spokesperson said:

This is the kind of thing that cuts through with voters - that the public will be furious about.

There's the thing - the SNP aren't going forward in the polls and need all the support they can get. With regards to the Alex Salmond trial I have made this point countless times before - whichever way the trail goes the party will be damaged. If Salmond is acquitted then his very public erasure from the party's history will be called into question by his supporters. His ego will not take it lying down and he has demonstrated already that he's happy to throw folks under the bus and Nippy will be his target.

If he is found guilty then the Nationalist cause will be tainted as most of its key totems were Salmond's ideas.

Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 3rd March 10:38

[hutchst]

I think if he's found not guilty the repercussions will be more far-reaching than just a dysfunctional political party.

[A.J.M]

If he’s found guilty, it’s a large nail in the snp coffin.
They are a minority party, and are being shown up to be weaker for Scotland in many regards of education, police, nhs etc.

If he’s guilty, it raises the question of why the snp and government have sat on the knowledge of having a sexual predator working for years without reporting him.

If he’s innocent, it raises the question of the effectiveness of our entire legal system.

What’s worse?

[jtremlett]

Garvin said:

technodup said:

jtremlett said:

doubt it will make any difference. Firstly, he may get off. Secondly, I doubt anyone is truly swayed as to whether they think independence is a good idea or not based upon whatever nasty things those on either side of the debate might get up to when their not spouting forth about independence.

That's extremely wishful thinking imo.

Rightly or wrongly the personalities involved have a huge influence on people's opinions and voting intentions. Why do you think they record personal approval ratings? If the chief architect of independence is guilty (and probably even if he isn't- mud sticks) it will inevitably turn people off.

And that's before we talk about his protege...

To the die hard ScotNats it will not make any difference, they will come up with all manner of excuses for his behaviour. However, the 'floating voters' will have a hard time justifying to themselves, let alone anyone else, their continued support for, what threatens to be, the exposure of a party with corrupt, disgusting and quite possibly illegal leadership. Throw in the Cherry v Robertson internecine warfare and it all looks increasingly dicey for the SNP to say the least.

Definitely not wishful thinking! I hope he goes down and takes the rest of the SNP with him. But that isn't the same as what I think will happen. He's now a former leader. If the mud sticks to Sturgeon then she'll go too and there will just be someone else (presumably Cherry or Robertson) saying that's all behind them as a party and meanwhile how about another referendum. I just don't think the thought process for an independent Scotland or not is much about whether you like or hate Salmond or Sturgeon. Especially given the SNP's manifest failings in running things in Scotland seem to make little difference to their votes.

[Alpacaman]

Whilst waiting for the trial of the year a couple of other things-

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18273075.nicol...

It turns out the SNP are massively over represented based on their vote share, they won 81% of the seats based on 45% of the vote and Scotland has the most disproportionate vote of any part of the UK.

Also the independence movement is still able to produce some of the biggest nutters out there.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1248789/Scottish...

"‘Yes’ supporters have been labelled as “completely insane” after a woman boasted about putting a small stone, emblazoned with ‘Yes’, on a packet of chicken breasts. Independence campaigners even revealed they had boycotted buying products and even supermarkets that used labels with the Union flag."

[hidetheelephants]

Alpacaman said:

"‘Yes’ supporters have been labelled as “completely insane” after a woman boasted about putting a small stone, emblazoned with ‘Yes’, on a packet of chicken breasts. Independence campaigners even revealed they had boycotted buying products and even supermarkets that used labels with the Union flag."

They make good company for the twitter mob attacking Yorkshire Tea.

[Evercross]

Alpacaman said:

Whilst waiting for the trial of the year a couple of other things-

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18273075.nicol...

It turns out the SNP are massively over represented based on their vote share, they won 81% of the seats based on 45% of the vote and Scotland has the most disproportionate vote of any part of the UK.

Scotland has a representation in Westminster that it didn't vote for! Wasn't that always the nationalist war-cry of the past?

jtremlett said:

If the mud sticks to Sturgeon then she'll go too and there will just be someone else (presumably Cherry or Robertson) saying that's all behind them as a party and meanwhile how about another referendum. I just don't think the thought process for an independent Scotland or not is much about whether you like or hate Salmond or Sturgeon. Especially given the SNP's manifest failings in running things in Scotland seem to make little difference to their votes.

That is perhaps, but it all comes down to whether they just want to collect the coin for being in office or whether they actually want independence. 6 years of polling now consistently shows that the majority of Scots don't want independence (the only recent blip was when they were asked if the Scottish Parliament should have the powers to decide to hold another plebiscite, which is an entirely different question) and the SNP' tactic has been that external factors will eventually convince the 'soft' no's to switch and independence will be achieved.

That hasn't happened, so Nicola has run out of road and the pretenders hope to capitalise on the core vote by re-invigorating the constitutional question that the majority of Scots aren't interested in but will garner enough support to keep them and the SNP in power.

The problem though is there is no way the SNP will unite behind another leader who is delivering the same message as six years ago but everyone is to believe now because it is them saying it rather than Nicola Sturgeon. Pete Wishart for one has said it is a non-starter and the small number of swing voters that give the SNP that disproportionate representation will be quickly lost.

[Edinburger]

Evercross said:

Blah, blah, blah.. the Nationalist cause will be tainted as most of its key totems were Salmond's ideas.

Methadone. Jagermeister. Volkswagen Beetle. Three things invented by Germany under the Nazi regime. And three things we still use today.

Do you really think the Nationalist cause will be tainted that much?

[hutchst]

Edinburger said:

Methadone. Jagermeister. Volkswagen Beetle. Three things invented by Germany under the Nazi regime. And three things we still use today.

Do you really think the Nationalist cause will be tainted that much?

We?

[Ridgemont]

Edinburger said:

Evercross said:

Blah, blah, blah.. the Nationalist cause will be tainted as most of its key totems were Salmond's ideas.

Methadone. Jagermeister. Volkswagen Beetle. Three things invented by Germany under the Nazi regime. And three things we still use today.

Do you really think the Nationalist cause will be tainted that much?

Tainted? Probably not. Split? Very possibly. There is a fundamental division between the Salmond/sturgeon which goes beyond personalities.

[NoddyonNitrous]

Ridgemont said:

Tainted? Probably not. Split? Very possibly. There is a fundamental division between the Salmond/sturgeon which goes beyond personalities.

the flying Reverend of Bath has set up an alternative Nationalist party - doesn't sound like its going anywhere at the moment - instantly banned from ttter I see

[Garvin]

Edinburger said:

Methadone. Jagermeister. Volkswagen Beetle. Three things invented by Germany under the Nazi regime. And three things we still use today.

Do you really think the Nationalist cause will be tainted that much?

There is spectacularly missing the point and then there is the above post.

The issue is the political party and remind me what happened to the Nazi party?

[anonymous-user]

technodup said:

Big-Bo-Beep said:

in what way ? i didnt think we could comment on a ongoing trial

The entire online, print, and broadcast media is going to be commenting on every minute detail of every (alleged) sex offence for as long as the trial goes on for.

Which is going to be fking great for the union. Thanks Alex.

Steady there, indy supporters will tell you you're wrong.

Fat Eck doesnt have ANYTHING to do with independence or the SNP. Salmond is not 'Mr. SNP' nor is he some sort of 'freedom(!)'-monger, okay?

[hutchst]

Is that Alex Salmond, the bekilted TV presenter you're talking about? Did he used to be in politics?

[technodup]

Apparently now there's a wee spat about whether SNP MPs are allowed to endorse prospective MSP candidates. Cherry says not, presumably because she's as disliked within that group as she will be in the wider country.

What's the proper leadership process btw? I seem to remember Salmond beating Cunningham (or was that Swinney?) but I definitely remember wee Nicky didn't have to bother with anything so basic as democracy. Much like her list entry to Holyrood she's really not as popular as she likes to make out.