Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9

[Garvin]

ant1973 said:

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

No evidence yet - time will tell. However, I agree that she does not want independence anymore, the evidence that it is a financial clusterfk is indisputable . . . . . . . . unless you are a die hard ScotNat.

I thought little of her when I believed she actually wanted independence. Now that she is just stringing the intellectually challenged along to maintain power my opinion of her could not possibly get any lower. People accuse Boris of lying but he has nothing on this SWT.

[ant1973]

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

No evidence yet - time will tell. However, I agree that she does not want independence anymore, the evidence that it is a financial clusterfk is indisputable . . . . . . . . unless you are a die hard ScotNat.

I thought little of her when I believed she actually wanted independence. Now that she is just stringing the intellectually challenged along to maintain power my opinion of her could not possibly get any lower. People accuse Boris of lying but he has nothing on this SWT.

Agreed. She ain't dumb. She knows this is as good as it gets for her and her party. Thankfully, swathes of her party are borderline retards who will press her for indy.

[Edinburger]

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

irc said:

Welshbeef said:

Will they simply bank the cash or lie oh we don’t have the money.

Bank the cash and lie. Then think of more freebies to bribe voters with.

Close. They will want to bribe their voters. Their demographic will not be interested in stamp duty at £500k. Cheap food on the other hand...

This would give Sturgeon a bit of a problem. With the recent realisation by a lot of employers that WFH is actually quite workable and efficient then more and more staff can work from further afield than the normal commuter belts. These workers are more likely to be higher earners and more likely to be ‘upwardly mobile’. By not following suit with Westminster then it becomes even more attractive to such workers to move South and thus begins the brain drain and the SNP dream of independence recedes further.

ABC1s don't vote for her. The less of them there are, the more her grip is strengthened. She CGAF about business. She does not understand it and barely tolerates it. We would all work for the state in her universe.

Yes, but where do/will all those ABC1s pay income tax if they live in England post ‘the dream’?

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

What makes you think ABC1s don't vote SNP? I know a number who do.

Why differentiate between C1s and C2s?

[Parsnip]

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

No evidence yet - time will tell. However, I agree that she does not want independence anymore, the evidence that it is a financial clusterfk is indisputable . . . . . . . . unless you are a die hard ScotNat.

I thought little of her when I believed she actually wanted independence. Now that she is just stringing the intellectually challenged along to maintain power my opinion of her could not possibly get any lower. People accuse Boris of lying but he has nothing on this SWT.

£23.5k stamp duty in your back pocket and a couple of grand a year tax cut - I'll be honest, I can see the appeal of leaving Scotland and moving to England...

[ant1973]

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

irc said:

Welshbeef said:

Will they simply bank the cash or lie oh we don’t have the money.

Bank the cash and lie. Then think of more freebies to bribe voters with.

Close. They will want to bribe their voters. Their demographic will not be interested in stamp duty at £500k. Cheap food on the other hand...

This would give Sturgeon a bit of a problem. With the recent realisation by a lot of employers that WFH is actually quite workable and efficient then more and more staff can work from further afield than the normal commuter belts. These workers are more likely to be higher earners and more likely to be ‘upwardly mobile’. By not following suit with Westminster then it becomes even more attractive to such workers to move South and thus begins the brain drain and the SNP dream of independence recedes further.

ABC1s don't vote for her. The less of them there are, the more her grip is strengthened. She CGAF about business. She does not understand it and barely tolerates it. We would all work for the state in her universe.

Yes, but where do/will all those ABC1s pay income tax if they live in England post ‘the dream’?

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

What makes you think ABC1s don't vote SNP? I know a number who do.

Why differentiate between C1s and C2s?

It's in the common wheal research. Will dig it out and find it. Should have prefaced my comments with "Generally". I don't know anyone in the business community or the professions who support them. Purely anecdotal, I know.

[Edinburger]

ant1973 said:

Edinburger said:

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

Garvin said:

ant1973 said:

irc said:

Welshbeef said:

Will they simply bank the cash or lie oh we don’t have the money.

Bank the cash and lie. Then think of more freebies to bribe voters with.

Close. They will want to bribe their voters. Their demographic will not be interested in stamp duty at £500k. Cheap food on the other hand...

This would give Sturgeon a bit of a problem. With the recent realisation by a lot of employers that WFH is actually quite workable and efficient then more and more staff can work from further afield than the normal commuter belts. These workers are more likely to be higher earners and more likely to be ‘upwardly mobile’. By not following suit with Westminster then it becomes even more attractive to such workers to move South and thus begins the brain drain and the SNP dream of independence recedes further.

ABC1s don't vote for her. The less of them there are, the more her grip is strengthened. She CGAF about business. She does not understand it and barely tolerates it. We would all work for the state in her universe.

Yes, but where do/will all those ABC1s pay income tax if they live in England post ‘the dream’?

She doesn't care. No evidence that anyone is moving to England. I am not remotely convinced she wants indy; why bother when she has power without responsibility. We need to pray for a split in the indy vote.

What makes you think ABC1s don't vote SNP? I know a number who do.

Why differentiate between C1s and C2s?

It's in the common wheal research. Will dig it out and find it. Should have prefaced my comments with "Generally". I don't know anyone in the business community or the professions who support them. Purely anecdotal, I know.

Thanks, that's interesting. Off the top of my head, I know of an architect, an anesthetist, two GPs, a detective sergeant, and a two financial advisers who don't just vote SNP but are members. Between them there's three business owners and all are significant tax payers.

I think it's a mistake to think it's just the dregs of society who vote SNP.

[sbarclay62]

technodup said:

Sorry not sorry, but should babysitting really be the responsibility of the state? (Answer is no btw).

This was one of Brown's ideas wasn't it? Along with tax credits- let's make everyone a client of the government. Not done them much good though has it? Ungrateful bds happy to take take take but still won't vote Labour.

It should be if there is a return on it for the state?

I left my job old and now work minimum wage. I probably won't earn enough to pay tax this year. My old job I was paying quite a bit on tax, N.I, company car tax not to mention a few tanks of diesel for commuting every month. Didn't see much point in the 50hr weeks to hand most off that across to a nursery. Blessing in disguise really - ain't missing it in the slightest 8-)


Big loss the childcare stuff. Won't affect them much though due to a lack of alternative parties to vote for. Carlaw and Leonard

[Roderick Spode]

ant1973 said:

It's in the common wheal research. Will dig it out and find it. Should have prefaced my comments with "Generally". I don't know anyone in the business community or the professions who support them. Purely anecdotal, I know.

I have a group of three close friends, all university graduates and engineering professionals. One is fanatically pro-independence, for purely ideological reasons as opposed to evidence based ones (we have spoken about this at great length), and I would suggest is beyond supporting the SNP - he's more on the 'Tommy Sheridan' side of the spectrum. One is a left leaning archetypal middle Scotland type, who broadly supports the SNP and is in favour of indy, with every bad thing seemingly the fault of the English, somehow. The third is a centrist, broad minded and not falling into any particular camp. Opposed to independence as a bad idea, with awareness of all the financial pitfalls therein. Opposed to Brexit and notionally favours the Lib Dems. Finally there's me, a right leaning one nation Conservative, strongly in favour of the Union and passionately opposed to the SNP's version of 'independence'.

Any time we all get together the conversation inevitably turns to Scottish politics, the SNP and independence, usually instigated by #2 the SNP supporter. The first guy and I usually don't engage, because we are aware that we are outliers on the political spectrum, and so the chances of us agreeing on much are very marginal indeed. Eventually after an hour of 'England bad' discussion, I'll start asking questions about finances, institutions, the physical apparatus of a newly independent state - currency, central bank, pensions, welfare - which almost inevitably kills the discussion, as there are little in the way of answers beyond the pile of crap the SNP printed in the 2013 fictional bestseller "The Big White Book of Lies and Disinformation". Once this unpleasantness is dealt with, we are free to get on with drinking whisky.

It's interesting to be part of this small group who almost completely encompass the political spectrum. The SNP have done a tremendous job of selling their populist propaganda to middle Scotland, I know of quite a few people who voted for them in 2019 - a colleague being one example. He's very much opposed to Brexit, and so saw the SNP's campaign of 'Stop Brexit' as being one to vote for, and he did so. Asked how he thought the SNP would have the ability to stop Brexit, especially now with an 80 seat Conservative majority in the HoC, and the trigger firmly pulled on Article 50. He wasn't sure on that one. It's similar to the 'a vote for us isn't a vote for independence' from the 2017 campaign, then as soon as the exit polls came in, Nipoleon was all over the telly, squealing about a renewed mandate for independence. It's so tiresome and obvious, and astonishing that outwardly intelligent people can fall for it. The SNP are a campaign group with a well polished PR machine, not a party of government.

[Edinburger]

Roderick Spode said:

ant1973 said:

It's in the common wheal research. Will dig it out and find it. Should have prefaced my comments with "Generally". I don't know anyone in the business community or the professions who support them. Purely anecdotal, I know.

I have a group of three close friends, all university graduates and engineering professionals. One is fanatically pro-independence, for purely ideological reasons as opposed to evidence based ones (we have spoken about this at great length), and I would suggest is beyond supporting the SNP - he's more on the 'Tommy Sheridan' side of the spectrum. One is a left leaning archetypal middle Scotland type, who broadly supports the SNP and is in favour of indy, with every bad thing seemingly the fault of the English, somehow. The third is a centrist, broad minded and not falling into any particular camp. Opposed to independence as a bad idea, with awareness of all the financial pitfalls therein. Opposed to Brexit and notionally favours the Lib Dems. Finally there's me, a right leaning one nation Conservative, strongly in favour of the Union and passionately opposed to the SNP's version of 'independence'.

Any time we all get together the conversation inevitably turns to Scottish politics, the SNP and independence, usually instigated by #2 the SNP supporter. The first guy and I usually don't engage, because we are aware that we are outliers on the political spectrum, and so the chances of us agreeing on much are very marginal indeed. Eventually after an hour of 'England bad' discussion, I'll start asking questions about finances, institutions, the physical apparatus of a newly independent state - currency, central bank, pensions, welfare - which almost inevitably kills the discussion, as there are little in the way of answers beyond the pile of crap the SNP printed in the 2013 fictional bestseller "The Big White Book of Lies and Disinformation". Once this unpleasantness is dealt with, we are free to get on with drinking whisky.

It's interesting to be part of this small group who almost completely encompass the political spectrum. The SNP have done a tremendous job of selling their populist propaganda to middle Scotland, I know of quite a few people who voted for them in 2019 - a colleague being one example. He's very much opposed to Brexit, and so saw the SNP's campaign of 'Stop Brexit' as being one to vote for, and he did so. Asked how he thought the SNP would have the ability to stop Brexit, especially now with an 80 seat Conservative majority in the HoC, and the trigger firmly pulled on Article 50. He wasn't sure on that one. It's similar to the 'a vote for us isn't a vote for independence' from the 2017 campaign, then as soon as the exit polls came in, Nipoleon was all over the telly, squealing about a renewed mandate for independence. It's so tiresome and obvious, and astonishing that outwardly intelligent people can fall for it. The SNP are a campaign group with a well polished PR machine, not a party of government.

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

[anonymous-user]

ant1973 said:

It's in the common wheal research. Will dig it out and find it.

Interested in this too

[Roderick Spode]

Edinburger said:

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

One poll does not make them a competent party of government. My comment stands.

[Edinburger]

Roderick Spode said:

Edinburger said:

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

One poll does not make them a competent party of government. My comment stands.

One subjective comment does not make them an incompetent party of government.

[Leithen]

Roderick Spode said:

One poll does not make them a competent party of government. My comment stands.

The polls represents the success of the PR machine. Scratch the surface of the Scot Gov's performance and it's a car crash.

[Evercross]

Edinburger said:

Thanks, that's interesting. Off the top of my head, I know of an architect, an anesthetist, two GPs, a detective sergeant, and a two financial advisers who don't just vote SNP but are members. Between them there's three business owners and all are significant tax payers.

...and three of them are Ian Blackford.....



ETA: Oops, sorry. None of them can be Ian Blackford because I noticed you mentioned they were significant tax payers...

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 9th July 11:47

[Roderick Spode]

Leithen said:

The polls represents the success of the PR machine. Scratch the surface of the Scot Gov's performance and it's a car crash.

This. As I said in my post above, the SNP is a protest movement with an incredibly successful PR machine behind it - which we as taxpayers all pay for.

[Roderick Spode]

Edinburger said:

Roderick Spode said:

Edinburger said:

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

One poll does not make them a competent party of government. My comment stands.

One subjective comment does not make them an incompetent party of government.

You're quite right. Their incredulous record in administration does that for them.

[A.J.M]

Edinburger said:

One subjective comment does not make them an incompetent party of government.

How about 13 years of education standards falling.
13 years of NHS failures.
13 years of council cuts.
13 years of police mismanagement.

And that’s before we get to the never resolved issue of what fking currency are they proposing we use in this magical land of milk and honey.

6 years after the vote and they still can’t/won’t answer it.


How did a country, once famed worldwide for its standards of education, intellect and not take bullst for an answer, fall for such a shower of scum that have ran us into the ground while claiming everything is amazing.

[Leithen]

A.J.M said:

How did a country, once famed worldwide for its standards of education, intellect and not take bullst for an answer, fall for such a shower of scum that have ran us into the ground while claiming everything is amazing.

Personally, I lay a lot of the blame at Mel Gibson's door.

[technodup]

Edinburger said:

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

All that poll actually found was around a thousand people who didn't have the savvy to ask why they were being compared as equals.

The Scottish 'government' is no such thing. She's handled the crisis 'well' simply because she's taken over the telly for the last three months and told everyone what to think. The public clearly equate 'doing something' or 'talking a lot' with success. The public are stupid though. And frankly so are people who use such an obviously opportunistic poll as evidence for anything.

[Roderick Spode]

technodup said:

Edinburger said:

Yet the polls disagree with your comment in bold.

A recent poll from Ipsos MORI found that the Scottish public rate the First Minister’s and the Scottish Government’s handling of the coronavirus crisis much more highly than Boris Johnson’s or the UK Government’s: 78% of Scots think the Scottish Government has handled the crisis well so far, compared with 34% who say the same of the UK Government.

All that poll actually found was around a thousand people who didn't have the savvy to ask why they were being compared as equals.

The Scottish 'government' is no such thing. She's handled the crisis 'well' simply because she's taken over the telly for the last three months and told everyone what to think. The public clearly equate 'doing something' or 'talking a lot' with success. The public are stupid though. And frankly so are people who use such an obviously opportunistic poll as evidence for anything.

The media have a responsibility in all this as well, they have constantly treated her with kid gloves & in general the Scottish media newshounds are entirely deferential to her during Q&A sessions. Also, one pre-approved question, then the mic switched off. No opportunity to respond. More careful stage management by the SNP's vast army of publicly funded spin doctors. Even if any slightly risqué questions do make their way through, Nipoleon turns the head wobble up to eleven & engages righteous indignation mode. It's so amusing and predictable. The SNP do a great job of selling this illusion of caring competence, and the media are complicit in publicising it. To take a step back and actually scrutinise their record on education, health, the economy, policies for business, infrastructure - it's all calamitous. And the faithful will point towards London and cry "England / Westminster / Toareess". It's pathetic.