Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9
Discussion
Pretty sure this has never come up without the words 'non-essential' in flashing neon lights.
“In the last lockdown non-essential construction and manufacturing didn’t operate for a period, they’ve both done an awful lot to make their operations safer but we have to keep all of that under review.
“In the last lockdown non-essential construction and manufacturing didn’t operate for a period, they’ve both done an awful lot to make their operations safer but we have to keep all of that under review.
Edited by Lim on Friday 8th January 11:07
Lim said:
Pretty sure this has never come up without the words 'non-essential' in flashing neon lights.
“In the last lockdown non-essential construction and manufacturing didn’t operate for a period, they’ve both done an awful lot to make their operations safer but we have to keep all of that under review.
We shall see. I wouldn't put it past our egregious First Minister to cast aside the 'non-essential' element of that statement.“In the last lockdown non-essential construction and manufacturing didn’t operate for a period, they’ve both done an awful lot to make their operations safer but we have to keep all of that under review.
moanthebairns said:
I'm 33, fit and healthy yet have had to loose tens of thousands so some f
king 84 year old in a care home can live in their piss for another six months. Enough is enough, I am fed up with this tunnel vision, they're not taking into consideration the ramifications on other aspects of life or existing medical conditions. When all is said in done this will kill more prematurely than it will save whilst lowering the standard of life. Just imagine if we'd spent all the money we have done on finding cures for cancer, AIDs, dementia, heart disease, better care than on a virus that kills 41 under 45's in an entire year in a country with a population of 5 million.
I understand frustration with lockdown and am utterly fed up with it, have probably lost my job as a consequence and am fearful of joining the job market in my late 40's. The problem is our wonderful leaders decided on herd immunity then panicked when reality hit and bet the farm on vaccination instead:king 84 year old in a care home can live in their piss for another six months. Enough is enough, I am fed up with this tunnel vision, they're not taking into consideration the ramifications on other aspects of life or existing medical conditions. When all is said in done this will kill more prematurely than it will save whilst lowering the standard of life. Just imagine if we'd spent all the money we have done on finding cures for cancer, AIDs, dementia, heart disease, better care than on a virus that kills 41 under 45's in an entire year in a country with a population of 5 million. | Date | 08/01/2021 | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Country | Deaths | Per capita | Population |
| New Zealand | 25 | 5 | 5002100 |
| S. Korea | 1084 | 21 | 51292237 |
| Norway | 467 | 86 | 5443283 |
| Finland | 584 | 105 | 5545215 |
| Denmark | 1487 | 256 | 5802840 |
| Ireland | 2307 | 465 | 4966398 |
| Slovakia | 2788 | 511 | 5461024 |
| N, Ireland | 1414 | 747 | 1893667 |
| Scotland | 4779 | 874 | 5463300 |
| Colombia | 45067 | 881 | 51164237 |
| Switzerland | 8178 | 941 | 8687544 |
| UK | 78508 | 1153 | 68071770 |
| Wales | 3801 | 1206 | 3152879 |
| England | 68514 | 1217 | 56286961 |
| Italy | 77291 | 1279 | 60415307 |
What they should have done is test, track, trace & isolate like South Korea have done, closed schools and nurseries where there are outbreaks like South Korea have done, mandated public use of facemasks like South Korea have done. And kept business open and let people carry on with their lives like South Korea have done and like they told the world how to do last April.
We've had nearly 100k unnecessary deaths in the UK, I'm angry at that; the rest of it is a further consequence of poor leadership.
ETA: Oh aye, the reason I started the table was to show people who think Nicola has done a good job....
I suspect any variation in the numbers has very little to do with anything NS fiddled around the edges on. This table was largely baked in by May.
Each country had more or less decided on it's (proper) lockdown thresholds (measured in ICU admissions I think?) by that point, and Scotland's threshold isn't materially different from Englands, at least relative to the likes of NZ.
It could be argued that Scotland might have picked a different threshold under independence. But whether that would have worked out, is a whole new can of worms.
Each country had more or less decided on it's (proper) lockdown thresholds (measured in ICU admissions I think?) by that point, and Scotland's threshold isn't materially different from Englands, at least relative to the likes of NZ.
It could be argued that Scotland might have picked a different threshold under independence. But whether that would have worked out, is a whole new can of worms.
Edited by Lim on Friday 8th January 12:47
hiccy18 said:
I understand frustration with lockdown and am utterly fed up with it, have probably lost my job as a consequence and am fearful of joining the job market in my late 40's. The problem is our wonderful leaders decided on herd immunity then panicked when reality hit and bet the farm on vaccination instead:
What they should have done is test, track, trace & isolate like South Korea have done, closed schools and nurseries where there are outbreaks like South Korea have done, mandated public use of facemasks like South Korea have done. And kept business open and let people carry on with their lives like South Korea have done and like they told the world how to do last April.
We've had nearly 100k unnecessary deaths in the UK, I'm angry at that; the rest of it is a further consequence of poor leadership.
ETA: Oh aye, the reason I started the table was to show people who think Nicola has done a good job....
You can’t keep shutting schools and nurseries because people need to work. My wife has told her work that today is her last day, since I am back to work Monday and we have no child care for our 4 year old until his nursery opens up again.| Date | 08/01/2021 | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Country | Deaths | Per capita | Population |
| New Zealand | 25 | 5 | 5002100 |
| S. Korea | 1084 | 21 | 51292237 |
| Norway | 467 | 86 | 5443283 |
| Finland | 584 | 105 | 5545215 |
| Denmark | 1487 | 256 | 5802840 |
| Ireland | 2307 | 465 | 4966398 |
| Slovakia | 2788 | 511 | 5461024 |
| N, Ireland | 1414 | 747 | 1893667 |
| Scotland | 4779 | 874 | 5463300 |
| Colombia | 45067 | 881 | 51164237 |
| Switzerland | 8178 | 941 | 8687544 |
| UK | 78508 | 1153 | 68071770 |
| Wales | 3801 | 1206 | 3152879 |
| England | 68514 | 1217 | 56286961 |
| Italy | 77291 | 1279 | 60415307 |
What they should have done is test, track, trace & isolate like South Korea have done, closed schools and nurseries where there are outbreaks like South Korea have done, mandated public use of facemasks like South Korea have done. And kept business open and let people carry on with their lives like South Korea have done and like they told the world how to do last April.
We've had nearly 100k unnecessary deaths in the UK, I'm angry at that; the rest of it is a further consequence of poor leadership.
ETA: Oh aye, the reason I started the table was to show people who think Nicola has done a good job....
As for track and trace, A large % of people were deliberately giving false details, while eating out and such like
Indoctrinated disciples will remain indoctrinated disciples, regardless of any negative whatsoever. And regardless
of how many times they mess about with their username, they are as well being ignored unless you revel in futility
and have absolutely nothing better to do with your time.
of how many times they mess about with their username, they are as well being ignored unless you revel in futility
and have absolutely nothing better to do with your time.
hiccy18 said:
I understand frustration with lockdown and am utterly fed up with it, have probably lost my job as a consequence and am fearful of joining the job market in my late 40's. The problem is our wonderful leaders decided on herd immunity then panicked when reality hit and bet the farm on vaccination instead:
What they should have done is test, track, trace & isolate like South Korea have done, closed schools and nurseries where there are outbreaks like South Korea have done, mandated public use of facemasks like South Korea have done. And kept business open and let people carry on with their lives like South Korea have done and like they told the world how to do last April.
We've had nearly 100k unnecessary deaths in the UK, I'm angry at that; the rest of it is a further consequence of poor leadership.
ETA: Oh aye, the reason I started the table was to show people who think Nicola has done a good job....
I've edited your table to show the relevant lines as far as Nicola and her supporters are concerned.| Date | 08/01/2021 | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Country | Deaths | Per capita | Population |
| Scotland | 4779 | 874 | 5463300 |
| England | 68514 | 1217 | 56286961 |
What they should have done is test, track, trace & isolate like South Korea have done, closed schools and nurseries where there are outbreaks like South Korea have done, mandated public use of facemasks like South Korea have done. And kept business open and let people carry on with their lives like South Korea have done and like they told the world how to do last April.
We've had nearly 100k unnecessary deaths in the UK, I'm angry at that; the rest of it is a further consequence of poor leadership.
ETA: Oh aye, the reason I started the table was to show people who think Nicola has done a good job....
J6542 said:
You can’t keep shutting schools and nurseries because people need to work. My wife has told her work that today is her last day, since I am back to work Monday and we have no child care for our 4 year old until his nursery opens up again.
As for track and trace, A large % of people were deliberately giving false details, while eating out and such like
There's been no lockdown in South Korea and all schools have stayed open most of the time, only being closed when there's been a local outbreak. What approach has worked better?As for track and trace, A large % of people were deliberately giving false details, while eating out and such like
I suppose the old adage of people getting the government they deserve would appear to be true by your observation then? Because north and south of the border we've got populist f
kwits unsuited to organising a national response to a global emergency.Interesting about turn, or was a misleading impression being given?
On Monday, Sturgeon said:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18994588.no-pl...
Full parliamentary statement - https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covi...
On Monday, Sturgeon said:
Sturgeon speech to Scottish Parliament said:
Given that the number of cases has increased significantly since then, we can expect to see significantly increased pressure on the NHS over the course of this month.
Contingency plans remain in place to double and then treble ICU capacity if necessary.
And the NHS Louisa Jordan continues to be available to help meet demand - as indeed it has been doing in recent months.
And in the Herald today, quoting yesterday's daily briefingContingency plans remain in place to double and then treble ICU capacity if necessary.
And the NHS Louisa Jordan continues to be available to help meet demand - as indeed it has been doing in recent months.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18994588.no-pl...
Herald Article said:
We are not planning, as things stand just now, to use it for Covid patients.
So I assume that the Glasgow one is as useless for looking after Covid patients as all the other Nightingales then?Full parliamentary statement - https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covi...
mcdjl said:
I've edited your table to show the relevant lines as far as Nicola and her supporters are concerned.
Ha! 
I started it a month ago and Switzerland, Slovakia, England, Wales & Italy have been really clobbered since then. ICU demand vs availability in England & Wales is horrifying at the moment, people are dying from lack of suitable care.
This isn't relevant to the thread except as a foil to those who may think the SG have done a good job.
Lim said:
I suspect any variation in the numbers has very little to do with anything NS fiddled around the edges on. This table was largely baked in by May.
Each country had more or less decided on it's lockdown thresholds (measured in ICU admissions I think?) by that point, and Scotland's threshold isn't materially different from Englands, at least relative to the likes of NZ.
It could be argued that Scotland might have picked a different threshold under independence. But whether that would have worked out, is a whole new can of worms.
I don't think it's fair to say it was baked in by May, far from it: our behaviour post-lockdown has had a huge bearing on how the virus has spread throughout our society, it's no surprise that those heading off to Spain in July brought back a fresh strain and new sources of infection. The new "UK" strain may be more infectious but queues of people doing their christmas shopping were going to result in a huge spike anyway, just in time to spread it around the family.Each country had more or less decided on it's lockdown thresholds (measured in ICU admissions I think?) by that point, and Scotland's threshold isn't materially different from Englands, at least relative to the likes of NZ.
It could be argued that Scotland might have picked a different threshold under independence. But whether that would have worked out, is a whole new can of worms.
The problem throughout Europe is the governments have fought the symptoms of a disease instead of fighting a virus by preventing its spread; a threshold of ICU admissions isn't really what they should be looking at, breaking transmission chains is the important point. An independent Queen Nic would've been at least as bad as BoJo, her eyes were just as much off the ball at the start and she would've had far less resources at her disposal with which to respond (badly).
hiccy18 said:
I don't think it's fair to say it was baked in by May, far from it: our behaviour post-lockdown has had a huge bearing on how the virus has spread throughout our society, it's no surprise that those heading off to Spain in July brought back a fresh strain and new sources of infection. The new "UK" strain may be more infectious but queues of people doing their christmas shopping were going to result in a huge spike anyway, just in time to spread it around the family.
The problem throughout Europe is the governments have fought the symptoms of a disease instead of fighting a virus by preventing its spread; a threshold of ICU admissions isn't really what they should be looking at, breaking transmission chains is the important point. An independent Queen Nic would've been at least as bad as BoJo, her eyes were just as much off the ball at the start and she would've had far less resources at her disposal with which to respond (badly).
I agree mostly. Behaviour does matter. However, Scotland is still a liberal democracy at it's core, just like England. And deep down, these deep rooted behaviours don't change overnight. Not without a massive shock.... Equally, it's unlikely a SARS style authoritarian approach would have been taken, had Scotland been indy in 2019, for similar reasons. The problem throughout Europe is the governments have fought the symptoms of a disease instead of fighting a virus by preventing its spread; a threshold of ICU admissions isn't really what they should be looking at, breaking transmission chains is the important point. An independent Queen Nic would've been at least as bad as BoJo, her eyes were just as much off the ball at the start and she would've had far less resources at her disposal with which to respond (badly).
But if it were to happen again, maybe it would be different. The economic and health arguments for taking an authoritarian approach, have been (to some) extent vindicated, so for better/worse the public are likely more amenable to SARS style response now, than they were 12 months ago. So with benefit of hindsight, if NS had successfully gone full NZ, that would have had immense political capital. An alternative timeline, that SNP are trying to pick crumbs from as best they can.
I think part of the poll boost, is not (just) about the fiddling, but more to do with the realisation that, had we full control of borders and all that stuff, we could have taken our own unique approach. And many find that thought appealing, from a sovereignty point of view. Maybe we would have made more serious mistakes,. but they would have been our mistakes to make.
Then you get onto all the vaccine availability and affordability stuff... and we are back to square one in this discussion.
Edited by Lim on Friday 8th January 13:48
Lim said:
I suspect any variation in the numbers has very little to do with anything NS fiddled around the edges on. This table was largely baked in by May.
Another brainfart from Sturgeon's grreatest fan.She has made a point of letting everyone know she has been doing things differently and has the power to do so since day 1, so BS to your point above.
If she chose to follow similar paths to rUK then that is on her if we are to take what she has said until now at face value (except of course it was the bastirt English re-infecting Scotland in September that destroyed her plans to 'eliminate Covid').
Lim said:
It could be argued that Scotland might have picked a different threshold under independence. But whether that would have worked out, is a whole new can of worms.
..and if your auntie had baws....You are FOS LimJim (or whatever you are calling yourself this month).
It must surely be rather unsettling, being one of Sturgeons faithful proselytizers, hoodwinked to the core in the
belief that she is the one that will fulfill the dream of independence, yet one of the biggest independence supporting
websites known, WOS, are almost unanimously against her, there is hardly an expletive known to mankind that
has not ben levied at her recently, they are even agreeing to comments such as this....
Blog said....
'The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim'.
So how do the 'unfathomably dim' view the fact that their dearest and beloved leader is now being disowned,
scorned and rejected by absolute masses of SNats?, many of which are and will be voicing that scorn here....
https://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-truth-83/
belief that she is the one that will fulfill the dream of independence, yet one of the biggest independence supporting
websites known, WOS, are almost unanimously against her, there is hardly an expletive known to mankind that
has not ben levied at her recently, they are even agreeing to comments such as this....
Blog said....
'The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim'.
So how do the 'unfathomably dim' view the fact that their dearest and beloved leader is now being disowned,
scorned and rejected by absolute masses of SNats?, many of which are and will be voicing that scorn here....
https://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-truth-83/
Pastor Of Muppets said:
It must surely be rather unsettling, being one of Sturgeons faithful proselytizers, hoodwinked to the core in the
belief that she is the one that will fulfill the dream of independence, yet one of the biggest independence supporting
websites known, WOS, are almost unanimously against her, there is hardly an expletive known to mankind that
has not ben levied at her recently, they are even agreeing to comments such as this....
Blog said....
'The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim'.
So how do the 'unfathomably dim' view the fact that their dearest and beloved leader is now being disowned,
scorned and rejected by absolute masses of SNats?, many of which are and will be voicing that scorn here....
https://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-truth-83/
And this..... https://archive.vn/6469tbelief that she is the one that will fulfill the dream of independence, yet one of the biggest independence supporting
websites known, WOS, are almost unanimously against her, there is hardly an expletive known to mankind that
has not ben levied at her recently, they are even agreeing to comments such as this....
Blog said....
'The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim'.
So how do the 'unfathomably dim' view the fact that their dearest and beloved leader is now being disowned,
scorned and rejected by absolute masses of SNats?, many of which are and will be voicing that scorn here....
https://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-truth-83/
Pastor Of Muppets said:
And this..... https://archive.vn/6469t
Tom Gordon said:
The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim.
It’s saying, you either let Scotland vote for independence now or it’ll really vote for independence later.
Are we actually supposed to take that seriously?
That's LameJim's argument right there - better let them vote for it anyway!It’s saying, you either let Scotland vote for independence now or it’ll really vote for independence later.
Are we actually supposed to take that seriously?
But as I have said many times to many people before him - why let the genie out the bottle when you've got a firm and absolute grip on the stopper?
Lim said:
I agree mostly. Behaviour does matter. However, for all it's socialist leanings, Scotland is still a liberal democracy at it's core, just like England. And deep down, these deep rooted behaviours don't change overnight. Not without a massive shock.... So It's unlikely a SARS style authoritarian approach would have been taken, had Scotland been indy in 2019.
But if it were to happen again, maybe it would be different. The economic and health arguments for taking an authoritarian approach, have been (to some) extent vindicated, so for better/worse the public are likely more amenable to SARS style response now, than they were 12 months ago. So with benefit of hindsight, if NS had successfully gone full NZ, that would have had immense political capital. An alternative timeline, that SNP are trying to pick crumbs from as best they can.
I think part of the poll boost, is not (just) about the fiddling, but more to do with the realisation that, had we full control of borders and all that stuff, we could have taken our own unique approach. And many find that thought appealing, from a sovereignty point of view. Maybe we would have made the same mistakes,. but they would have been our mistakes to make. (this is just my guess how people perceive, not a comment on how COBRA etc actually works)
Then you get onto all the vaccine availability and affordability stuff... and we are back to square one in this discussion.
All this "socialist" or "liberal democracy" stuff is bBut if it were to happen again, maybe it would be different. The economic and health arguments for taking an authoritarian approach, have been (to some) extent vindicated, so for better/worse the public are likely more amenable to SARS style response now, than they were 12 months ago. So with benefit of hindsight, if NS had successfully gone full NZ, that would have had immense political capital. An alternative timeline, that SNP are trying to pick crumbs from as best they can.
I think part of the poll boost, is not (just) about the fiddling, but more to do with the realisation that, had we full control of borders and all that stuff, we could have taken our own unique approach. And many find that thought appealing, from a sovereignty point of view. Maybe we would have made the same mistakes,. but they would have been our mistakes to make. (this is just my guess how people perceive, not a comment on how COBRA etc actually works)
Then you get onto all the vaccine availability and affordability stuff... and we are back to square one in this discussion.
ks though, isn't it? Nothing more than a smokescreen for a complete lack of pragmatic policies or effective leadership. The other smokescreen is tales of south-east Asia having a "compliant population" yet S.Korea have had nothing like the level of restrictions to their personal freedoms and liberties that we're still putting up with.We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone. Learning from Italy and acting effectively in February & March was not prevented by being part of the UK, it was prevented from happening because Queen Nic was too busy with her independence agenda, just as BoJo was too busy with Brexit. I don't agree with it but border closure is now a reality, what prevented that from happening earlier? Politicians focussed on politics rather than policies and duties.
hiccy18 said:
We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone.
Where are you getting this figure from? UK Population is circa 65,000,000, excess deaths possibly 80,000. Scotland Population circa 5,400,000, excess deaths possibly 6,700. That's 0.12% - 0.13% of population isn't it?Leithen said:
hiccy18 said:
We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone.
Where are you getting this figure from? UK Population is circa 65,000,000, excess deaths possibly 80,000. Scotland Population circa 5,400,000, excess deaths possibly 6700. That's 0.12% - 0.13% of population isn't it?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff