Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9
Discussion
hiccy18 said:
All this "socialist" or "liberal democracy" stuff is b
ks though, isn't it? Nothing more than a smokescreen for a complete lack of pragmatic policies or effective leadership. The other smokescreen is tales of south-east Asia having a "compliant population" yet S.Korea have had nothing like the level of restrictions to their personal freedoms and liberties that we're still putting up with.
We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone. Learning from Italy and acting effectively in February & March was not prevented by being part of the UK, it was prevented from happening because Queen Nic was too busy with her independence agenda, just as BoJo was too busy with Brexit. I don't agree with it but border closure is now a reality, what prevented that from happening earlier? Politicians focussed on politics rather than policies and duties.
I suppose it loops back into the UDI stuff. Yes we probably could have legally closed borders and we could possibly go to court and declare independence etc, but unless we arrive at other side on good terms with neighbours with integrity largely intact, then these routes are counterproductive. And therefore these kinds of ideas are mainly of interest to those whose primary aim, over all else, is to destabilise the SNP. For surprisingly varied reasons ks though, isn't it? Nothing more than a smokescreen for a complete lack of pragmatic policies or effective leadership. The other smokescreen is tales of south-east Asia having a "compliant population" yet S.Korea have had nothing like the level of restrictions to their personal freedoms and liberties that we're still putting up with.We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone. Learning from Italy and acting effectively in February & March was not prevented by being part of the UK, it was prevented from happening because Queen Nic was too busy with her independence agenda, just as BoJo was too busy with Brexit. I don't agree with it but border closure is now a reality, what prevented that from happening earlier? Politicians focussed on politics rather than policies and duties.
But I’ve already conceded that Scotland probably would have taken a the same approach to COVID-19, Indy or no Indy. So it’s kind of moot. Except for the question on how the fallout might influence voters in the coming election(s) of course.
i4got said:
Leithen said:
hiccy18 said:
We are where we are and perhaps as a society we will learn from this (doubt it), but in order to do this we need to be realistic about how much of a mess we've made of things and what countries we can learn from: we're well on target to having lost 2% of the population to one virus in the space of 12 months (1st April > 31st March), we have no effective track & trace and isolation is being enforced by blanket lockdown to the detriment of everyone.
Where are you getting this figure from? UK Population is circa 65,000,000, excess deaths possibly 80,000. Scotland Population circa 5,400,000, excess deaths possibly 6700. That's 0.12% - 0.13% of population isn't it?ks, 0.2% of UK approx by 31st March. Doesn't have quite the same impact when you say it like that....Lim said:
I suppose it loops back into the UDI stuff. Yes we probably could have legally closed borders and we could possibly go to court and declare independence etc, but unless we arrive at other side on good terms with neighbours with integrity largely intact, then these routes are counterproductive. And therefore these kinds of ideas are mainly of interest to those whose primary aim, over all else, is to destabilise the SNP.
More bks.Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia. A lost cause indeed.
Lim said:
I suppose it loops back into the UDI stuff. Yes we probably could have legally closed borders and we could possibly go to court and declare independence etc, but unless we arrive at other side on good terms with neighbours with integrity largely intact, then these routes are counterproductive. And therefore these kinds of ideas are mainly of interest to those whose primary aim, over all else, is to destabilise the SNP.
More bks.Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia.
A lost cause indeed when your own ruminations are just a bag of self-contradiction.
Evercross said:
..and if your auntie had baws....
Arthur [Bomber] Harris in one of his last BBC interviews was said to have uttered this short, sharp quaint phrase after he was asked if his wartime strategy had shortened the war.
His couthy answer obviously wasn't broadcast but it led to a scratching of heads by learned BBC bods as to what on earth was
the meaning of his cryptic response.
Lim said:
Evercross said:
More bks.
Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia.
A lost cause indeed when your own ruminations are just a bag of self-contradiction.
Reported. ks.Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia.
A lost cause indeed when your own ruminations are just a bag of self-contradiction.
But I'll give you a chance to explain yourself - how is it that when someone suggested the border should have been closed to prevent Covid spread you consider that would have been a tactic exercised by others to 'destabilise the SNP' because of poor neighbourly relations yet you see no problem with your Sainted Nicola of the Fake Opinion polls doing the same thing?
Call me what you want - but putting that question to you breaks no rules in this forum!
Lim said:
No you are obviously agitating for a fight. I’m not interested in picking through your insults for any slim pickings.
Read my post again. The detail is on there if you care enough to read closely.
There is no detail. There is your usual 'word salad' (a brilliant term - I can't claim it but it could have been invented for you) and a brazen two-faced piece of doublethink that goes in your typical fashion 'Sturgeon good, everyone else bad', even to the extent of conferring the blame of an action Sturgeon actually committed on to others.Read my post again. The detail is on there if you care enough to read closely.
I repeat - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Your words, so you explain them please, or accept the verdict that you are talking nonsense and being hopelessly blinkered and biased.
Edited by Evercross on Friday 8th January 16:56
Evercross said:
There is no detail. There is your usual 'word salad' (a brilliant term - I can't claim it but it could have been invented for you) and a brazen two-faced piece of doublethink that goes in your typical fashion 'Sturgeon good, everyone else bad', even to the extent of conferring the blame of an action Sturgeon actually committed on to others.
I repeat - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Your words, so you explain them please, or accept the verdict that you are talking nonsense and being hopelessly blinkered and biased.
I'll make this very simple for you. Black and white. I will only reply to your posts if they don't contain insults, misquotes or misrepresentations. I repeat - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Your words, so you explain them please, or accept the verdict that you are talking nonsense and being hopelessly blinkered and biased.
Edited by Evercross on Friday 8th January 16:56
Otherwise I'll ignore them. And I'm more than happy for you to maintain your own private rules for me.
Lim said:
I'll make this very simple for you. Black and white. I will only reply to your posts if they don't contain insults, misquotes or misrepresentations.
Judge, jury, executioner. It's cop-out mate, but as I and other have said to you before it is just an easy-out for you to talk drivel without having to explain yourself. Don't expect others to engage with you either if you aren't actually prepared to though.One last chance - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Why is it OK for her to p
s off the neighbours, but not the other way around?If you don't answer I will assume it is because you cannot because you don't want to admit to the error, or will not because you are fully aware of the double-standards you have applied and see nothing wrong with them.
Edited by Evercross on Friday 8th January 17:15
Evercross said:
Judge, jury, executioner. It's cop-out mate, but as I and other have said to you before it is just an easy-out for you to talk drivel without having to explain yourself. Don't expect others to engage with you either if you aren't actually prepared to though.
One last chance - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Why is it OK for her to ps off the neighbours, but not the other way around?
If you don't answer I will assume it is because you cannot because you don't want to admit to the error, or will not because you are fully aware of the double-standards you have applied and see nothing wrong with them.
You're just encouraging his delusion that anybody gives a flying fOne last chance - why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Why is it OK for her to p
s off the neighbours, but not the other way around?If you don't answer I will assume it is because you cannot because you don't want to admit to the error, or will not because you are fully aware of the double-standards you have applied and see nothing wrong with them.
Edited by Evercross on Friday 8th January 17:15
k what he thinks.I don't think George Laird is much of a fan of Nicola-
https://glasgowunihumanrights.blogspot.com/2021/01...
He says- "To my surprise, SNP Leader Nicola Sturgeon is considering closing down 'takeaways'. This is a prime resource for many homeless people who don't have access to cooking facilities. If a person cannot maintain a reasonable body temperature, they are at serious risk of cold related illness and death. Is Nicola Sturgeon so backward and incompetent that she never thinks through the garbage she utters that passes for possible proposed policy? Sturgeon is what I term a 'cut and paste' politician, she is bereft of original thought, because everything she does has no depth to it."
and- "My contention is that SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon is a bad leader, stupid and dangerous, her gesture politics are a dead weight on the governance of Scotland. In the midst of the pandemic, Sturgeon has failed the people of Scotland. This is increasingly looking like abuse of power and abuse of ministerial office. The reality of Sturgeon's handling of the pandemic is that she has failed in the most key areas, such as public health messaging, which she deliberately has made political. Scottish people are ignoring her appeals because her incompetence has cost so many people their lives. It's like realisation that you aren't willing to get in the car with the drunk driver despite their protestations they can get you were you want to go."
It still amazes me that there is anyone left prepared to support this bunch of incompetents and ignore the damage they are doing to this country.
https://glasgowunihumanrights.blogspot.com/2021/01...
He says- "To my surprise, SNP Leader Nicola Sturgeon is considering closing down 'takeaways'. This is a prime resource for many homeless people who don't have access to cooking facilities. If a person cannot maintain a reasonable body temperature, they are at serious risk of cold related illness and death. Is Nicola Sturgeon so backward and incompetent that she never thinks through the garbage she utters that passes for possible proposed policy? Sturgeon is what I term a 'cut and paste' politician, she is bereft of original thought, because everything she does has no depth to it."
and- "My contention is that SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon is a bad leader, stupid and dangerous, her gesture politics are a dead weight on the governance of Scotland. In the midst of the pandemic, Sturgeon has failed the people of Scotland. This is increasingly looking like abuse of power and abuse of ministerial office. The reality of Sturgeon's handling of the pandemic is that she has failed in the most key areas, such as public health messaging, which she deliberately has made political. Scottish people are ignoring her appeals because her incompetence has cost so many people their lives. It's like realisation that you aren't willing to get in the car with the drunk driver despite their protestations they can get you were you want to go."
It still amazes me that there is anyone left prepared to support this bunch of incompetents and ignore the damage they are doing to this country.
Evercross said:
Lim said:
Evercross said:
More bks.
Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia.
A lost cause indeed when your own ruminations are just a bag of self-contradiction.
Reported. ks.Sturgeon took the decision to close the border legally - how does that fit with your narrative of 'destabilising the SNP'?
You really are away in a world of your own imaginations, verging on fantasy and paranoia.
A lost cause indeed when your own ruminations are just a bag of self-contradiction.
But I'll give you a chance to explain yourself - how is it that when someone suggested the border should have been closed to prevent Covid spread you consider that would have been a tactic exercised by others to 'destabilise the SNP' because of poor neighbourly relations yet you see no problem with your Sainted Nicola of the Fake Opinion polls doing the same thing?
Call me what you want - but putting that question to you breaks no rules in this forum!
A.J.M said:
Lim
why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
Just a quick clarification, I said borders. If any country in the union had unilaterally banned international flights, against wishes of other 3 nations, that would be antagonistic, and rogue decisions unlikely to do much good for international trust and standing. why would closing the border be an act of 'destabilising the SNP' because it jeopardised being on 'good terms with neighbours' if performed by others, but not by Sturgeon?
I looped back to SNP, but didn't conflate the points entirely. Those who argue UDI in my view, can't be sincerely interested in independence. For reasons others have given. Not least it would likely be in the end of SNP when they are laughed off the international stage.
ant1973 said:
Edinburger said:
Roderick Spode said:
ant1973 said:
Like the ramblings of the demented across the political spectrum, they can be safely ignored.
What can't be ignored is the Dear Leader's comments this morning that she is going to look at taking further measures that prevent people leaving their house to go to work. I fear we may well see construction and manufacturing canned this week. She might adopt the sleekit "guidance" approach of last time but the entire industry will not fall for that trick twice. I am hopeful it will not be anything other than a repeat of the guidance because she can't afford to sub those two large sectors of the economy. Especially given that an election is imminent (maybe!).
I hope she gives it a square go, because she would be picking a fight with so many industry bodies and the UK Government. I work in the electricity sector, and the regulator Ofgem & National Grid lobbied the UK Government hard prior to the first lockdown, stating that continued upgrades to the electricity network should be considered vital for national security, to which the UK Govt agreed on the basis of suitable provision of Covid-safe methods of working be implemented, which has been done throughout the industry. I look forward to seeing Foghorn Dreghorn, a tinpot dictator of a regional assembly, getting slapped down when she tries to mix it with the big boys. What can't be ignored is the Dear Leader's comments this morning that she is going to look at taking further measures that prevent people leaving their house to go to work. I fear we may well see construction and manufacturing canned this week. She might adopt the sleekit "guidance" approach of last time but the entire industry will not fall for that trick twice. I am hopeful it will not be anything other than a repeat of the guidance because she can't afford to sub those two large sectors of the economy. Especially given that an election is imminent (maybe!).
When you say "I fear we may well see construction and manufacturing canned this week" I assumer you mean told they must not leave home for work? If that happens, good (asuming furlough, etc.). It makes no sense to have schools closed when vanloads of workmen are travelling together all over the place. Likewise, there's lots of businesses open and even shops open who should not be open if schools are not open.
I take it you are able to work from home!!?
What should construction companies do? You know that furlough only deals with staff wages - not pension contributions and NI? How do they finance their fixed costs? Take out potentially ruinous loans? Owners to risk their homes with CBILs PGs?
But hey, you are ok, so I guess it's fine.
Both industries contribute enormously to the economy and our well being. Construction is a low margin, high risk business. Reserves are low and this will be the death knell for lots of companies. There is no support for fixed costs in terms of grants.
I hope the Chief Mammy understands that it is a one way ticket to unemployment for a key component of her demographic.
No doubt we will be issued with "guidance" so she can have clean hands in the future.
Not if I have anything to do with it.
With respect - your comfy middle class attitude makes me sick.
Look at this way. Schools are closed. Children's education is one of the most important things any government must look after. But kids are at home while schools try to provide some sort of education remotely. This is a catastrophe.
Yet we have van loads of builders driving to jobs every day and they do not all observe social distancing or other required procedures. Today I've seen bike shops, estate agents, cake shops, hardware shops, tailors, dry cleaners and pet shops all open. Are they all essential? Is ordering a cake or having a suit dry cleaned more important than children's education?
That's my point.
Edinburger said:
My "comfy middle class attitude"? Hardly. If only you knew me.
Look at this way. Schools are closed. Children's education is one of the most important things any government must look after. But kids are at home while schools try to provide some sort of education remotely. This is a catastrophe.
Yet we have van loads of builders driving to jobs every day and they do not all observe social distancing or other required procedures. Today I've seen bike shops, estate agents, cake shops, hardware shops, tailors, dry cleaners and pet shops all open. Are they all essential? Is ordering a cake or having a suit dry cleaned more important than children's education?
That's my point.
In other countries the schools switch to remote learning when necessary and all the businesses stay open and function as normal. Is earning a living essential? I'd say so. Can learning be done remotely? I know it can; it's perhaps not as good but when high schools are running at 54% attendance at times thanks to self isolation wouldn't it be better to have properly organised remote learning in place?Look at this way. Schools are closed. Children's education is one of the most important things any government must look after. But kids are at home while schools try to provide some sort of education remotely. This is a catastrophe.
Yet we have van loads of builders driving to jobs every day and they do not all observe social distancing or other required procedures. Today I've seen bike shops, estate agents, cake shops, hardware shops, tailors, dry cleaners and pet shops all open. Are they all essential? Is ordering a cake or having a suit dry cleaned more important than children's education?
That's my point.
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