Cabinet reshuffle Feb 2020
Discussion
Fundoreen said:
Esther McVey sacked.
Im convinced she is given jobs in order to be sacked later and put a spring in the nations step.
She should never have been in post in the first place. Just a Boris poster girl, like Priti Patel who’s equally feckless. Im convinced she is given jobs in order to be sacked later and put a spring in the nations step.
Javid’s gone up I my estimation for sticking by his principles.
Fittster said:
When do I get the chance to vote on Dominic Cummings?
I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
In just under 5 years time at the next election. I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
Then you get the chance to vote for someone else, and their advisers. Politicians having advisers is nothing unusual.
We aren't ruled by unelected officials. We are ruled by elected politicians who are advised by unelected officials. If you do not like the unelected official, all you have to do is not vote for the politician that they report to.
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Fittster said:
When do I get the chance to vote on Dominic Cummings?
I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
In just under 5 years time at the next election. I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
Then you get the chance to vote for someone else, and their advisers. Politicians having advisers is nothing unusual.
We aren't ruled by unelected officials. We are ruled by elected politicians who are advised by unelected officials. If you do not like the unelected official, all you have to do is not vote for the politician that they report to.
vaud said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Fittster said:
When do I get the chance to vote on Dominic Cummings?
I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
In just under 5 years time at the next election. I'm sure all this Brexit business was because we didn't want to be ruled by unelected officials.
Then you get the chance to vote for someone else, and their advisers. Politicians having advisers is nothing unusual.
We aren't ruled by unelected officials. We are ruled by elected politicians who are advised by unelected officials. If you do not like the unelected official, all you have to do is not vote for the politician that they report to.
Chaps, I've read a fair amount of NP&E but try to stick to the TVR section for my contributions to PH. Noone needs my uneducated opinion. The big thing here, it seems to me, is a shift in the 'independence' of No11 and power balance between No11 and No 10. Can anyone point me to some decent links explaining to the layman the importance of the No10/11 relationship and the pros and cons of this latest change?
turbobloke said:
WindyCommon said:
He's a former hedge fund manager.
Also a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury.Many will hate that but this chap is no eejit.
I think the importance of the balance between no. 10 and no. 11 has to be judged on the wider context.
As someone said earlier, CMD and Osborne worked well together to stay on message around so called austerity.
Blair and Brown less so, as Brown was determined to get his chance to prove he would be a worse PM than Blair.
Spreadsheet Phil (doubt he ever used one tbh) was using the role very politically, and when he was in step with May, it was probably just by accident.
Reflecting on it: it does seem odd that the leader of the party, the govt and the country would let his next door neighbour cook up a budget of their own making that the PM could find completely unacceptable.
In my humble organisation, the Finance Director would never work on and present a budget that wasn't utterly aligned to the organisation's objectives, having gone through many iterations of senior review to make sure it was palatable.
Surely governments do the same?
So I do wonder what these 6 spads would have done that Boris (sorry Dominic) thinks that was so dangerous....
As someone said earlier, CMD and Osborne worked well together to stay on message around so called austerity.
Blair and Brown less so, as Brown was determined to get his chance to prove he would be a worse PM than Blair.
Spreadsheet Phil (doubt he ever used one tbh) was using the role very politically, and when he was in step with May, it was probably just by accident.
Reflecting on it: it does seem odd that the leader of the party, the govt and the country would let his next door neighbour cook up a budget of their own making that the PM could find completely unacceptable.
In my humble organisation, the Finance Director would never work on and present a budget that wasn't utterly aligned to the organisation's objectives, having gone through many iterations of senior review to make sure it was palatable.
Surely governments do the same?
So I do wonder what these 6 spads would have done that Boris (sorry Dominic) thinks that was so dangerous....
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
That's a very nice way of saying surround yourself with sycophants.
How many leaders (not just of countries, but leaders in general) surround themselves with people who will actively work against them when they don't have to? I would guess (and I admit this is guess) none!If Boris surrounds himself with "his" people (call them sycophants if you like), then he is even more responsible for whether his premiership is a success or failure.
The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
ATG said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
That's a very nice way of saying surround yourself with sycophants.
How many leaders (not just of countries, but leaders in general) surround themselves with people who will actively work against them when they don't have to? I would guess (and I admit this is guess) none!If Boris surrounds himself with "his" people (call them sycophants if you like), then he is even more responsible for whether his premiership is a success or failure.
The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
ATG said:
Good leaders surround themselves with people who can think and offer opinions, and they encourage them to do so. They don't surround themselves with people who are inexperienced and owe them something.
The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
Sorry, that is a superficial analysis.The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
In an entirely domestic situation, you might be correct. Unfortunately we are in the middle of possibly sn existential economic (or political if you are the EC) negotiation right now. Taking Javid OFF the board* eliminates another pillar of confirmation bias / bluff the EC have been so fond off.
The risk in the trade negotiations thus far, is the EC are pushing a much more aggressive posture than team UK. They think we will blink because BJ is not as strong as they wish / hope for / silly sausage liberal media says. Taking the weak link OFF the table, is the smart move. It lowers the risk of No Deal, as we ain't bluffing. They are.
Javid wasn't planning to resign today, it came after the 1hr punch up. The EC have and will try to leverage every political gap in this negotiation, we are closing them (as they found out on equivalence - no one with half a brain even their own central bank buys their bulls
t).There is a bigger game afoot.
Next you will be telling us von Clausewitz should he taken literally.
* you do know he didn't actually resign, right? It was elimination of his advisers and merge with the Cummings Borg that pushed it...
Edited by stongle on Thursday 13th February 20:47
It’s certainly amusing watching the usual suspects spinning the fact of the incumbent and well respected ChEx resigning on the grounds of not wanting to be bullied by the PMs attack dog a month before one of the most eagerly awaited budgets of recent times as a masterclass in political acumen.
The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
Brooking10 said:
It’s certainly amusing watching the usual suspects spinning the fact of the incumbent and well respected ChEx resigning on the grounds of not wanting to be bullied by the PMs attack dog a month before one of the most eagerly awaited budgets of recent times as a masterclass in political acumen.
The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
Sorry, disagree. Whilst I think Javid is a good stick, you can't measure him in chancellor terms. Bigger game afoot. Cummings should (by MO) always have burned him. The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
It might be a negative outcome on budget responsibility NOT in EU negotiations.
Prepared for you're best shot.....
Two different approaches.
Appoint skilled, intelligent, capable individuals to top positions, task them to achieve and let them get on with it. Minimum of fkups, but increased risk of highlighting the lack of emperors clothing.
Appoint incompetent, inexperienced, puppets to top positions, don't let them have any initiative or freedom. fkups guaranteed, that for a while can be spun, but eventually will expose lack of emperors clothing.
Appoint skilled, intelligent, capable individuals to top positions, task them to achieve and let them get on with it. Minimum of f
kups, but increased risk of highlighting the lack of emperors clothing.Appoint incompetent, inexperienced, puppets to top positions, don't let them have any initiative or freedom. f
kups guaranteed, that for a while can be spun, but eventually will expose lack of emperors clothing.stongle said:
Sorry, disagree. Whilst I think Javid is a good stick, you can't measure him in chancellor terms. Bigger game afoot. Cummings should (by MO) always have burned him.
It might be a negative outcome on budget responsibility NOT in EU negotiations.
Prepared for you're best shot.....
My best shot is pretty simplistic It might be a negative outcome on budget responsibility NOT in EU negotiations.
Prepared for you're best shot.....
I happen to agree with that you that Javid had the potential to be a dissenting voice BUT I don’t think we have seen enough to make a definite call in that regard.
More to the point however given the level of expectation for, and scrutiny there is going to be of, this govt’s first budget the timing and manner of this are exceptionally clumsy and not deliberate.
Short version - the long range thinking idea you advance is not implausible but I certainly don’t think definitively the case.
As a result Boris needs to be careful that he isn’t seen as taking a Trumpian approach. While some on here would love to see it it’s an exceptionally big gamble given all those “rented votes”
Net net - today’s events are messy and not a good reflection irrespective of any longer range thinking.
stongle said:
Brooking10 said:
It’s certainly amusing watching the usual suspects spinning the fact of the incumbent and well respected ChEx resigning on the grounds of not wanting to be bullied by the PMs attack dog a month before one of the most eagerly awaited budgets of recent times as a masterclass in political acumen.
The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
Sorry, disagree. Whilst I think Javid is a good stick, you can't measure him in chancellor terms. Bigger game afoot. Cummings should (by MO) always have burned him. The denizens of NPE doing their bit as Boris’ poundshop Fox News
It might be a negative outcome on budget responsibility NOT in EU negotiations.
Keeping divisions alive isn't a sign of political acumen, particularly with the PM in such a strong position. Moving towards greater harmony between No 10 and No 11 certainly is.
Hopefully SJ will take a holiday with Mrs Javid in a Mustique villa at some point, with has-been remoaner Tories asking Boris to take him back purely for symmetry reasons.
Brooking10 said:
My best shot is pretty simplistic
I happen to agree with that you that Javid had the potential to be a dissenting voice BUT I don’t think we have seen enough to make a definite call in that regard.
More to the point however given the level of expectation for, and scrutiny there is going to be of, this govt’s first budget the timing and manner of this are exceptionally clumsy and not deliberate.
Short version - the long range thinking idea you advance is not implausible but I certainly don’t think definitively the case.
As a result Boris needs to be careful that he isn’t seen as taking a Trumpian approach. While some on here would love to see it it’s an exceptionally big gamble given all those “rented votes”
Net net - today’s events are messy and not a good reflection irrespective of any longer range thinking.
Well there you go, I agree. To me it looked like a bungled assassination which was too messy. Should've done him in the toilets not on TV.I happen to agree with that you that Javid had the potential to be a dissenting voice BUT I don’t think we have seen enough to make a definite call in that regard.
More to the point however given the level of expectation for, and scrutiny there is going to be of, this govt’s first budget the timing and manner of this are exceptionally clumsy and not deliberate.
Short version - the long range thinking idea you advance is not implausible but I certainly don’t think definitively the case.
As a result Boris needs to be careful that he isn’t seen as taking a Trumpian approach. While some on here would love to see it it’s an exceptionally big gamble given all those “rented votes”
Net net - today’s events are messy and not a good reflection irrespective of any longer range thinking.
I think this is very ugly internally, and way too noisy right now. Normally I would say Javid was bang on point, BUT when you are dealing with a very serious trade negotiation and the counter is trying to be 40% smarmy 60% Putin, Javid may have had to go in a hole.
Small tear.
ATG said:
Good leaders surround themselves with people who can think and offer opinions, and they encourage them to do so. They don't surround themselves with people who are inexperienced and owe them something.
The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
Wow. OK. The idea expressed by TB that a PM is da big boss man surrounded by minions is ... uhm ... peculiar. The UK is not an elected dictatorship. Parliament is sovereign, we have cabinet government and the PM is first amongst equals, nothing more.
Spinning today's reshuffle as a sign of strength and leadership is risible. No one can pretend that having the Chancellor resign a few weeks before a budget looks like strength or competent leadership. Particularly when plan B is a political sprat. It looks chaotic and reactive, and that's an increasingly well-established pattern.
So you think that the prime minister is not the boss, but the happy clappy facilitator of a group of equals who all have an equally valid view. And you call other's views risable!
Being the boss and wanting to get things done does not a dictator make.
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Wow. OK.
So you think that the prime minister is not the boss, but the happy clappy facilitator of a group of equals who all have an equally valid view. And you call other's views risable!
Being the boss and wanting to get things done does not a dictator make.
The anticipated reshuffle fair enough albeit on a performance basis some of those involved could feel hard done by, but ultimately he’s the boss and them’s the breaks.So you think that the prime minister is not the boss, but the happy clappy facilitator of a group of equals who all have an equally valid view. And you call other's views risable!
Being the boss and wanting to get things done does not a dictator make.
However the resignation of SJ - a total cock up
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff