Why do cyclists try to undertake left turning trucks ?
Discussion
S100HP said:
How anyone can blame the cyclist is beyond me. Unfortunately, quite a few people, both here and in the mail comments section seem to be willing to. Unreal.
To be fair, I get the impression that they have looked at the Daily Fail's version of the video from the original post, which makes it rather less clear - you'd almost think someone at the Fail doesn't like cyclists....Oh, and to make it clear, I'm NOT blaming the OP for the Fails cock-up, honest!
Dont like rolls said:
Your Dad said:
RobM77 said:
So in summary: legally, the van driver is 100% at fault and will probably lose his license for dangerous driving.
Driver received a £300 fine, plus £332 in costs and six points for ‘failing to nominate driver'.RobM77 said:
However, as with most accidents, the cyclist could have been more aware and prevented the incident.
Please explain how the cyclist could have done this.RobM, if as you say you have a V8.MGB race car and one might think you have a ticket, WHY would you think this ?
I explained this fully in my first post. Did neither of you read it? What you've quoted is a summary - I fully explained it in the post.I'm also confused by your first statement: What's a "ticket" and why should I have one if I own an MG?
Your Dad said:
I'll remember that advice when I drive home tonight, whenever another vehicle passes me on the motorway I'll ensure I slow down in case they want to cut me up.
Hang on the van pulls alongside and slows, for no apparent reason at the approach to a junction. There is information there that could be a clue. That doesn't mean the cyclist was wrong, or the van was right, just on a better day it could have been a different outcome. If an overtaking car did this on the motorway I would definitely be asking what are they about to do. Your Dad said:
RobM77 said:
So in summary: legally, the van driver is 100% at fault and will probably lose his license for dangerous driving.
Driver received a £300 fine, plus £332 in costs and six points for ‘failing to nominate driver'.RobM77 said:
However, as with most accidents, the cyclist could have been more aware and prevented the incident.
Please explain how the cyclist could have done this.There are several seconds where the cyclist is keeping pace with the van's back bumper. The fact that the van has reduced speed could be taken as a clue that he's about to change direction. Keeping pace with the rear quarter of a decelerating van could in general be considered ill-advised.
If the same cyclist found himself in the same situation in the future, it's likely he may behave proactively to avoid the same accident, even though the onus, obviously, is 99.99% on the van not to drive like a pillock.
In all of these situations, asking what the victim could have done in order to avoid the idiot makes for a far more edifying and interesting discussion than simply saying "look what this prick did" and leaving it there. We already knew that the van shouldn't be doing what he did. What could the cyclist have done to avoid the incident is the only thing left worth discussing.
RobM77 said:
I explained this fully in my first post. Did neither of you read it? What you've quoted is a summary - I fully explained it in the post.I'm also confused by your first statement: What's a "ticket" and why should I have one if I own an MG?
2nd "MG BGT V8 (race car) " so I am assuming you have a race licence of some sort, if so I worry, based on your assessment of the incident we are discussing that there is a question about your road craft.
There's a difference between blaming the cyclist and saying they could have done something to avoid the accident.
But if people thought about that then we would lose half the posts on threads that included two vehicles coming together.
I wasn't to blame for getting mugged in the Brazilian Favela, but I could probably have avoided it by not wearing my Breitling Gargantua and not waving my Iphone 24 about.
I wonder if the van driver had a line of cycles to pass, and was trying to get to a gap, like when you are trying to get off the motorway in the car and there's a line of lorries to try and squeeze in to somewhere?
Again I'm not condoning what the van driver did, just trying to work out the train of thought ( if there was one)
But if people thought about that then we would lose half the posts on threads that included two vehicles coming together.
I wasn't to blame for getting mugged in the Brazilian Favela, but I could probably have avoided it by not wearing my Breitling Gargantua and not waving my Iphone 24 about.
I wonder if the van driver had a line of cycles to pass, and was trying to get to a gap, like when you are trying to get off the motorway in the car and there's a line of lorries to try and squeeze in to somewhere?
Again I'm not condoning what the van driver did, just trying to work out the train of thought ( if there was one)
Dont like rolls said:
RobM77 said:
I explained this fully in my first post. Did neither of you read it? What you've quoted is a summary - I fully explained it in the post.I'm also confused by your first statement: What's a "ticket" and why should I have one if I own an MG?
2nd "MG BGT V8 (race car) " so I am assuming you have a race licence of some sort, if so I worry, based on your assessment of the incident we are discussing that there is a question about your road craft.
Regarding your question, yes, I've had a race license for nearly 20 years and have raced a huge variety of cars over that time, but how does that relate to roadcraft, i.e. the rules and principles safer road driving? Motorsport is about lapping closed circuits as fast as possible and battling for positions. Roadcraft is an entirely separate topic.
Secondly, if we are talking about roadcraft, nothing I've said is incompatible with this. Here are my two points again:
1) The van driver was 100% at fault for not signalling his intentions correctly, as laid out in the Highway Code (MSM: mirror signal manoeuvre) and roadcraft (often described as CMSBGA: Course, mirror, signal, brake, gear, accelerate). This is correct and my assessment agrees with the law's judgement, and we can see that by the fine and points he got.
2) Defensive driving, as also described by roadcraft, means seeing a possibility and avoiding it, even though the accident isn't your fault. As I carefully explained in my first post (which I suspect you still haven't read), this is fairly simple in a quiet town; you just never pass a vehicle near a junction, even if you're in a bike lane, but in London it often becomes too onerous to assume every car is going to take every single side turning.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 13th February 17:06
Your Dad said:
The van slows when, at 1m4s when he applies the brakes & indicator and turn left?
It is going significantly quicker than the cyclist until it draws level at 59 seconds at which point it has pretty much slowed to the same speed as the cyclist, the van driver makes matters worse by keeping the bike in it's blindspot area, until it brakes and turns. If I was the cyclist, I like to think I would have eased off slightly, but might just as well done the same thing. I would definitely have looked behind me far more than he appears to have (if at all) during that video. 
Driver at fault, but it shows how crap cycle lanes are.
They slap a bit of paint on the road and call it a cycle lane. It deliberately puts the cyclist in conflict with cars and lorries, it’s just really s
t design. Looking in your mirrors for an undertaking vehicle is not a natural thing to do (which is why undertaking is frowned upon on motorways).
They slap a bit of paint on the road and call it a cycle lane. It deliberately puts the cyclist in conflict with cars and lorries, it’s just really s
t design. Looking in your mirrors for an undertaking vehicle is not a natural thing to do (which is why undertaking is frowned upon on motorways). 
A question here, then.
With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
This whole road layout and multi-occupancy situation is fraught with disaster.
Furthermore, far too few road users of any kind have any idea about blind spots, either from the subject or object position.
With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
This whole road layout and multi-occupancy situation is fraught with disaster.
Furthermore, far too few road users of any kind have any idea about blind spots, either from the subject or object position.
markyb_lcy said:
Never assume (as a cyclist) that a driver is going to make all the required checks periodically / before turning.
Have to agree with this. In fact, one can't assume that they've seen you; hoping that they've seen you isn't good enough. I want to know 100% that they have seen me - as a result I've changed how I ride. Filtering is now a 'no no' after a near miss......Whilst the cyclist in this instance was completely innocent - not enough cyclists ride defensively......No good being in the right, but ending up in a box.
RobM77 said:
The cyclist wasn't undertaking a left turning truck. That cyclist was in a dedicated bike lane and it's quite normal to pass vehicles in such a lane - when the cyclist initiated the pass, the van wasn't indicating, wasn't slowing and was showing no other signs of turning. Shoving on your indicator half a second before you brake and turn is not indicating, it's dangerous driving.Pica-Pica said:
A question here, then.
With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
The lane has a solid line, it's not permitted to enter/cross the lane except where it's dashed, so the driver would need to stop in their lane and cross when it's clear. As you say, it's not ideal because they will be relying on peering into their door mirror.With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
ArnageWRC said:
Whilst the cyclist in this instance was completely innocent - not enough cyclists ride defensively......No good being in the right, but ending up in a box.
If you slowed down every time a vehicle passed in case they turned left you'd never get anywhere, especially on a CS lane. The cyclist did react pretty quickly though, I'm not sure what more they could have done other than maybe braking harder.Edited by Gareth79 on Thursday 13th February 17:43
Gareth79 said:
RobM77 said:
The cyclist wasn't undertaking a left turning truck. That cyclist was in a dedicated bike lane and it's quite normal to pass vehicles in such a lane - when the cyclist initiated the pass, the van wasn't indicating, wasn't slowing and was showing no other signs of turning. Shoving on your indicator half a second before you brake and turn is not indicating, it's dangerous driving.Pica-Pica said:
A question here, then.
With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
The lane has a solid line, it's not permitted to enter/cross the lane except where it's dashed, so the driver would need to stop in their lane and cross when it's clear. As you say, it's not ideal because they will be relying on peering into their door mirror.With a cautious van driver, preparing and planning to turn left, should he at the appropriate time;
Occupy the blue lane, to prevent a cyclist passing,
..and would this be legal?
Flesh around a bit of metal, or lots of metal around flesh.
Regardless of whether or not they could or should, if a cyclist chooses not to pass a truck on the left, whether it's indicating left or not, they don't get squished but they add a few seconds to their journey. I add a few seconds to my journeys by cycle, occasionally, with (touch wood) no squishness.
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