Home Secretary announces points-based immigration system

[Condi]

crankedup said:

We need to fast track innovations into robotics in agriculture and soft fruits, that’s currently ongoing in development. Never though a machine could crop strawberries without damaging the product? it’s almost ready for market.
.

Such things already exist in Japan, but despite all their innovation and experience with technology their economy is suffering from the aging population and low labour force. They are finding that some things simply can't be done by robot, no matter how advanced the technology is.

Look through history and every successful civilisation has had access to cheap labour. No doubt that is changing as technology improves, but historically has been shown to be true. I think a lot of hope and trust is being placed in technology, which is fine, but when we can import goods abroad cheaper, because they are using cheap labour, then the companies here are not going to have the money or confidence to invest.

Edited by Condi on Wednesday 19th February 15:46

[anonymous-user]

crankedup said:

Jimboka said:

As it’s a level playing field for the whole wide world (maybe), then the seasonal or lower paid jobs will presumably be filled by the lower skilled from other poor countries in the world. Not just typically Eastern European.
I wonder if the average brexit voter realised that hard working migrant labour will always be needed.
Just opened it up to other sources of ‘cheap’ labour.
Assuming that the lazy Brits don’t get off their backsides of course!

Nope, the salary baseline is to high to support cheap labour coming into the U.K.
We need to fast track innovations into robotics in agriculture and soft fruits, that’s currently ongoing in development. Never though a machine could crop strawberries without damaging the product? it’s almost ready for market.
Lazy brits are no longer to be supported on welfare, hence our one payment system in development and use. Seek work or reduction in welfare cheque.
The U.K. has to be weaned off the cheap labour mantra that has the Country being so distorted in Social and wealth terms.
.

Won’t we (Tesco or Amazon etc) just fly and ship cheaper fruit and vegetables in from abroad?

[JagLover]

Condi said:

Such things already exist in Japan, but despite all their innovation and experience with technology their economy is suffering from the aging population and low labour force. They are finding that some things simply can't be done by robot, no matter how advanced the technology is.

Japan has very different demographic issues to ourselves. Their population is falling for one thing while ours is rising.

Condi said:

Look through history and every successful civilisation has had access to cheap labour. No doubt that is changing as technology improves, but historically has been shown to be true. I think a lot of hope and trust is being placed in technology, which is fine, but when we can import goods abroad cheaper, because they are using cheap labour, then the companies here are not going to have the money or confidence to invest.

Successful modern economies have had productivity rises and real wage growth. We have had little of either since the age of cheap labour began .

[CambsBill]

El stovey said:

Won’t we (Tesco or Amazon etc) just fly and ship cheaper fruit and vegetables in from abroad?

At this time of the year most produce is imported in any case. If you're referring to pack at source then yes, that can work but not often. Loading efficiencies are impacted (more air being shipped in your pre-packed punnet of grapes), packaging weight is added to the transport cost (punnets + absorbent pads + wrap typically), plus wastage is much more likely - all produce deteriorates during transit, if it arrives in a UK packhouse to be packed then that small percentage can be pulled out. If a few grapes in a prepacked punnet have gone brown then that whole punnet will likely never be picked up by a customer so the whole lot goes to waste.

And all that's assuming that you as a customer are happy that the West continues to offload labour-intensive jobs onto some poor sod in Africa/Asia/wherever where they get paid £1/hour just so you can keep buying cheap fruit/veg.

[Condi]

CambsBill said:

And all that's assuming that you as a customer are happy that the West continues to offload labour-intensive jobs onto some poor sod in Africa/Asia/wherever where they get paid £1/hour just so you can keep buying cheap fruit/veg.

That is capitalism for you.

But its okay, because you will no doubt get the choice soon between very expensive UK grown vegetables, picked by someone on £15/hr (assuming that they can even get the staff at all), and much cheaper imported vegetables. Some customers might pay a premium, but most consumers will buy what works for them, and that means the cheaper choice.

[JagLover]

CambsBill said:

And all that's assuming that you as a customer are happy that the West continues to offload labour-intensive jobs onto some poor sod in Africa/Asia/wherever where they get paid £1/hour just so you can keep buying cheap fruit/veg.

Why wouldn't we be happy paying someone in the developing world a wage to harvest fruit and veg . A significant part of the world's population still live on less than a $1 a day. So what is wrong with paying them £1 an hour?

[CambsBill]

JagLover said:

CambsBill said:

And all that's assuming that you as a customer are happy that the West continues to offload labour-intensive jobs onto some poor sod in Africa/Asia/wherever where they get paid £1/hour just so you can keep buying cheap fruit/veg.

Why wouldn't we be happy paying someone in the developing world a wage to harvest fruit and veg . A significant part of the world's population still live on less than a $1 a day. So what is wrong with paying them £1 an hour?

I think that's a whole separate thread on Western exploitation of the Third World . . .

[CzechItOut]

deadslow said:

You don't seem to understand the qualities needed to be a carer. Your average shelf-packer has neither the skills nor the inclination to undertake this work.

You don't seem to understand that tens of millions of unskilled workers in our economy are currently doing jobs which could easily be automated except for the fact that is it cheaper to pay a person minimum wage than it is to make the investment in automation.

If the balance shifts towards making automation cost effective, either through staff shortages or a rise in the minimum wage, then suddenly those millions will all be competing for the handful of unskilled jobs which cannot be automated.

[Oakey]

Interesting article from 2008;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7425453.stm

BBC said:

But while the potential workforce appears to be at hand, the government does not believe that farmers should rely on cheaper migrant workers.

"We are phasing out low-skilled migration from outside the EU, because we think businesses should hire those close to home first," says a spokesperson for the Border and Immigration Agency.

"Some people have told us our immigration reforms are too draconian, but we think they're right for Britain."

also

BBC said:

"The amount I earn here on the farm in a week would take me four weeks to earn in Bulgaria," she says.

"At the end of this season, after I've bought some clothes, I hope to go home with £3,000 for six months' work.

[21TonyK]

CzechItOut said:

21TonyK said:

I'm a little out of touch in recent years but I would expect a huge impact on agriculture, fishing and lower end hospitality. AFAIK existing residents are okay? It's going to be the seasonal staff that are hit, one employer I worked for had about 800 EU staff on short contracts.

Doing what?

Accommodation cleaners, receptionists etc etc Over 200 sites

[citizensm1th]

near where i work is a massive amazon depot,it is heavily automated

it still has a large human workforce because even amazon cannot automate everything 27,000 employees in the uk alone

Aviva has even had to run a special bus service from leicester to coalville to cope with the numbers.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Coalville...


a few cars in the car park for this automated site

a nice video on how amazon blends human and machine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=91&amp...

It is worth going on a tour just so you can see how much we still need humans in the automated utopia some think we will move to.

[anonymous-user]

citizensm1th said:

near where i work is a massive amazon depot,it is heavily automated

it still has a large human workforce because even amazon cannot automate everything 27,000 employees in the uk alone

Aviva has even had to run a special bus service from leicester to coalville to cope with the numbers.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Coalville...


a few cars in the car park for this automated site

a nice video on how amazon blends human and machine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=91&amp...

It is worth going on a tour just so you can see how much we still need humans in the automated utopia some think we will move to.

They did an expose on that place on the tv the other day. I think they had a bit where staff were shown to be setting alight to it and stealing stuff on the way out. So amazon locked one of the fire exits to the car park.

It definitely had loads of people working there. It had some wky amazon name other than depot or workhouse.

Pretty cool to see how it all works. Not sure I’d like to work there though.

[citizensm1th]

El stovey said:

citizensm1th said:

near where i work is a massive amazon depot,it is heavily automated

it still has a large human workforce because even amazon cannot automate everything 27,000 employees in the uk alone

Aviva has even had to run a special bus service from leicester to coalville to cope with the numbers.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Coalville...


a few cars in the car park for this automated site

a nice video on how amazon blends human and machine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=91&amp...

It is worth going on a tour just so you can see how much we still need humans in the automated utopia some think we will move to.

They did an expose on that place on the tv the other day. I think they had a bit where staff were shown to be setting alight to it and stealing stuff on the way out. So amazon locked one of the fire exits to the car park.

It definitely had loads of people working there. It had some wky amazon name other than depot or workhouse.

Pretty cool to see how it all works. Not sure I’d like to work there though.

they use a lot of agency staff on top of their 27,000 employees


the point is though if amazon (who said in 2019 they cannot automate everything) needs to use humans in the sterile environment of a purpose built fulfilment centre that is optimised for automation what chance a farmer in the cotswolds? or a nursing home?

[Murph7355]

citizensm1th said:

they use a lot of agency staff on top of their 27,000 employees

the point is though if amazon (who said in 2019 they cannot automate everything) needs to use humans in the sterile environment of a purpose built fulfilment centre that is optimised for automation what chance a farmer in the cotswolds? or a nursing home?

Adapt to survive?

Pay decent wages?

Make use of the seasonal workers gambit?

Convince someone it's an area where skills are in seriously short supply?

[anonymous-user]

citizensm1th said:

they use a lot of agency staff on top of their 27,000 employees


the point is though if amazon (who said in 2019 they cannot automate everything) needs to use humans in the sterile environment of a purpose built fulfilment centre that is optimised for automation what chance a farmer in the cotswolds? or a nursing home?

I agree. I was surprised they needed so many people. I just thought it would be easy to get robots to find the items and pack them somehow.

There was an interesting thing about amazon delivery drones being used for surveillance and ring doorbells helping the police. The suggestion was it was a bit sinister but I thought it was a great idea.

Apparently they can (or are near to being able to) use Alexa to listen to our conversations and send us targeted advertising.

[s1962a]

whilst I still have my marbles and dignity in my old age, i wouldnt mind operating a robot via remote control to lift me up and change me etc etc rather than a human being - if i can swear at an alexa type machine and have some food delivered to me, even better. Obviously if i've lost all my faculties then it doesn't really matter who or what does it - I probably wouldn't be in a position to care

[JagLover]

citizensm1th said:

they use a lot of agency staff on top of their 27,000 employees


the point is though if amazon (who said in 2019 they cannot automate everything) needs to use humans in the sterile environment of a purpose built fulfilment centre that is optimised for automation what chance a farmer in the cotswolds? or a nursing home?

Again some seem to confuse between automating all jobs and automating 10% or so to deal with any supposed labour shortages.

[milkround]

citizensm1th said:

El stovey said:

citizensm1th said:

near where i work is a massive amazon depot,it is heavily automated

it still has a large human workforce because even amazon cannot automate everything 27,000 employees in the uk alone

Aviva has even had to run a special bus service from leicester to coalville to cope with the numbers.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Coalville...


a few cars in the car park for this automated site

a nice video on how amazon blends human and machine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=91&amp...

It is worth going on a tour just so you can see how much we still need humans in the automated utopia some think we will move to.

They did an expose on that place on the tv the other day. I think they had a bit where staff were shown to be setting alight to it and stealing stuff on the way out. So amazon locked one of the fire exits to the car park.

It definitely had loads of people working there. It had some wky amazon name other than depot or workhouse.

Pretty cool to see how it all works. Not sure I’d like to work there though.

they use a lot of agency staff on top of their 27,000 employees


the point is though if amazon (who said in 2019 they cannot automate everything) needs to use humans in the sterile environment of a purpose built fulfilment centre that is optimised for automation what chance a farmer in the cotswolds? or a nursing home?

As an HGV driver who has delivered to and collected from loads of Amazon distribution centres I can assure you that they are not a good example of automation. The absolute opposite. The small farm does much better with staffing levels.

A small company will have the farmer or one member of staff offload a lorry or load it. That same person will sign any paperwork and sort it all.

How many people do you think I need to interact with at Amazon to get tipped? FYI they even employ people to simple come and collect paperwork and keys as apposed to handing them over to an office bod. 20/30 members of staff whos job is just to walk you to and from your lorry on each shift, at each DC. They have more staff than most DC's... Usually a minimum of half a dozen and usually many many more simply in the hut signing people in. Most companies have got rid of staff signing lorries in and our and you use an intercom...

ALDI and LIDL now expect drivers delivering to unload their own lorry. They don't have you sitting drinking free coffee. If that is right or wrong is another matter. But it makes Amazon look like a joke in terms of efficiency.

The problem with Amazon is they talk the talk... And people assume they are really amazingly efficient. The absolute opposite is true. I could sit down with a senior manager at Amazon and shred a huge number of jobs and increase efficiency. But companies like that wouldn't listen to someone like me as they prefer to think they are cutting edge. Someone in an office who has never done a job has come up with ideas to do it better. And is patting himself on the back whilst those who do the work are shaking their heads.

Edited by milkround on Wednesday 19th February 18:01

[citizensm1th]

milkround said:

As an HGV driver who has delivered to and collected from loads of Amazon distribution centres I can assure you that they are not a good example of automation. The absolute opposite. The small farm does much better with staffing levels.

A small company will have the farmer or one member of staff offload a lorry or load it. That same person will sign any paperwork and sort it all.

How many people do you think I need to interact with at Amazon to get tipped? FYI they even employ people to simple come and collect paperwork and keys as apposed to handing them over to an office bod. 20/30 members of staff whos job is just to walk you to and from your lorry.

Unsurprisingly they keep the cool toys away from areas where truckers can stick their grubby fingers in,any occupation where warehouse staff have to remove the truck keys from them so they don't drive off of the bays before they have been unloaded would never be exposed to something as complicated as an automated warehouse.

i guess the 20/30 staff employed to walk you to and from your truck are there to make sure you don't injure yourself or someone else.

BTW before you go looking for your prostitute bashing hammer i am a HGV driver trainer by trade with a side line in transport management consulting and i am pulling your leg.

[pequod]

The assumption that Eastern European youngsters love working in the fields, wiping the backsides of our elderly, and packing/picking for Amazon is, quite frankly, laughable.

For millennia, people have moved to a more financially advantageous place to work and live, the 21st Century is no different.

The current EU workers will go elsewhere in the EU and will be supplanted by others from elsewhere in the world who will see the UK as an opportunity, probably S Asia or maybe SE, and trade, along with business, will adapt and continue.