Are the Police Service fit for purpose anymore?
Discussion
Reduce supply for increasing demand and compromises are made.
Hardly complicated.
Comparing police following orders to Nazis and The Holocaust.
You need help. You really do.It's RH on his second troll account, quoting the expert at being an expert at nothing. Cracking combo.
Hardly complicated.
Gargamel said:
They have 12.3 Billion to spend. And 124,000 Police Officers.
Are they really short of manpower or resources ?
Are they really short of manpower or resources ?
Red 4 said:
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the s
tty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
Recent Conservative governments are to blame.
One doesn't need to be a genius to realise that three factors combined will result in significantly increasing crime: year-on-year police funding cuts, a rising population (several hundred k per annum net immigration) and a serious economic downturn since 2008.
Results in:
One doesn't need to be a genius to realise that three factors combined will result in significantly increasing crime: year-on-year police funding cuts, a rising population (several hundred k per annum net immigration) and a serious economic downturn since 2008.
Results in:
As ever in this country these days, people want things done but aren't willing to pay for them. Police can only do what they can within the constraints of the time and money they have available.
Derek is obviously right (having had first hand experience of it) that the police force has improved immeasurably since 'the good old days' when cronyism and corruption were more common, and keeping the great and good free from suspicion of wrongdoing (see Jimmy Saville etc) was an important part of the job.
Derek is obviously right (having had first hand experience of it) that the police force has improved immeasurably since 'the good old days' when cronyism and corruption were more common, and keeping the great and good free from suspicion of wrongdoing (see Jimmy Saville etc) was an important part of the job.
turbobloke said:
Not sure why there's such a difference in police response to demonstrations when the situation of protesting citizens is hardly new.
When business owners / farmers and their employees / families of the Countryside Alliance protested, their skulls were cracked.
When crusty marxists, anarchists and revolting students protested, they got treated with kid gloves.
Consistency goes wrong too. Police stood back while London rioters burned buildings to the ground, and recently stood back while highways were fully blocked unlawfully by XR. At least that's consistent, but consistently miscalculated.
At least using a 16 year old protest and sample of 1 is newer than the 21 year old survey you tried to pass off as valid yesterday. When business owners / farmers and their employees / families of the Countryside Alliance protested, their skulls were cracked.
When crusty marxists, anarchists and revolting students protested, they got treated with kid gloves.
Consistency goes wrong too. Police stood back while London rioters burned buildings to the ground, and recently stood back while highways were fully blocked unlawfully by XR. At least that's consistent, but consistently miscalculated.
You've tried to use this one protest before to extrapolate it into some political conspiracy (and probably support climate-change denial and some anti-BBC post). I remember replying to you the last time you used it, where it was clear you had no idea about the subject matter.
You did your usual trick of ignoring it and moving on to some other thread to pretend you know what you're talking about before someone who actually does comes along.
Doesn't that endless cycle of blagging / pretending > getting called out > moving on and doing the same again grow tiresome?
La Liga said:
You did your usual trick of ignoring it and moving on to some other thread to pretend you know what you're talking about before someone who actually does comes along.
Doesn't that endless cycle of blagging / pretending > getting called out > moving on and doing the same grow tiresome?
He knows everything he can Google. What page the information comes from, and if it is accurate, is far less important than being able to quote some website, report or scientist to back up whatever point he's trying to make. As soon as someone who knows about the subject comes along he looks a bit like the Emperor and his new clothes. Doesn't that endless cycle of blagging / pretending > getting called out > moving on and doing the same grow tiresome?
Derek Smith said:
I looked up woke, as you suggested, and discovered that it means, in its accepted sense, 'alert to injustice in society, especially racism', and 'aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)'. What it doesn't explain is why it is used as an insult to the police service. One would hop that the police will be alert to injustice.
Assaults, burglary and theft are priorities and are resourced before Twitter posts. Camera vans are very low priority. My old medium sized police force has two, and they are not manned 24/7. And that old chestnut, that has been pointed out as incorrect time and time again, but to no avail; the police do not gain any revenue from speeding tickets. And leaving the EU will have little effect on policing. Indeed, most of the aspects of policing that many find frustrating are domestic.
Posters suggest that MPs are disconnected from 'real' policing. However, a quick glance through this thread shows that in this they reflect the general population.
I'm not insulting anyone, and as I've stated previously I have enormous respect for police officers on the streets, but the recent Humberside Police case seems (to me at least) to be indicative of muddled priorities.Assaults, burglary and theft are priorities and are resourced before Twitter posts. Camera vans are very low priority. My old medium sized police force has two, and they are not manned 24/7. And that old chestnut, that has been pointed out as incorrect time and time again, but to no avail; the police do not gain any revenue from speeding tickets. And leaving the EU will have little effect on policing. Indeed, most of the aspects of policing that many find frustrating are domestic.
Posters suggest that MPs are disconnected from 'real' policing. However, a quick glance through this thread shows that in this they reflect the general population.
The police do not gain revenue from speeding tickets, but they do receive a kickback for each speed awareness course, don't they? My local force has four camera vans, all operated by civilian operators. They are placed in positions which appear to be primarily aimed at the production of revenue rather than the promotion of safety. I accept, however that this is my interpretation. I also accept that my view, as a humble member of the general population, may be different to yours.
Gargamel said:
Ok this sounds, fun, and I assure you Pothole - I am happy to learn.
Bicycle is stolen. Lets say its a fairly typical 400 gbp mountain bike. It is stole from outside a Pharmacy. Re sale on the street is as low a 10gbp. Bike crime disproportionately affects kids and the poor, but for this example we will use a reasonable price bike.
Investigation. Happily there are four CCTV cameras nearby, all with different owners, all with a different memory etc. So lets figure 8 hours to gather the evidence, and then another 8 (one shift) to review it.
There might be some statements to collect, evidence such as a broken lock and possible recording of say post code stamp or other property marker. I will be generous and say another entire day.
So far, one copper - three days.
Assume something is found on the CCTV - or someone knows the perp and is willing to identify them, another full day to arrest, process and prepare a basic file for prosecution.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/18/police...
This article was why I started the thread.
These are some other stats about the effectiveness of the service.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/17/number...
Now at the start of the thread, I said I didn’t want to post stats, as I don’t want to bash the Police. I am genuinely interested in how as a society we support law and order, and reform/improve the service. I couldn’t give a st about one bike. But when I look at knife crime and rape, I am genuinely worried.
What about the thirty other crimes they're carrying. The serious assaults, the burglaries, thefts, counterfeit currencies and the three/four extra crimes they pick up every day. All need investigating. Then there's the spontaneous arrests, the MISPERS, the mental health watches, the road closures, the RTCs, Domestics, Risk Management Plans, Safeguarding.Bicycle is stolen. Lets say its a fairly typical 400 gbp mountain bike. It is stole from outside a Pharmacy. Re sale on the street is as low a 10gbp. Bike crime disproportionately affects kids and the poor, but for this example we will use a reasonable price bike.
Investigation. Happily there are four CCTV cameras nearby, all with different owners, all with a different memory etc. So lets figure 8 hours to gather the evidence, and then another 8 (one shift) to review it.
There might be some statements to collect, evidence such as a broken lock and possible recording of say post code stamp or other property marker. I will be generous and say another entire day.
So far, one copper - three days.
Assume something is found on the CCTV - or someone knows the perp and is willing to identify them, another full day to arrest, process and prepare a basic file for prosecution.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/18/police...
This article was why I started the thread.
These are some other stats about the effectiveness of the service.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/17/number...
Now at the start of the thread, I said I didn’t want to post stats, as I don’t want to bash the Police. I am genuinely interested in how as a society we support law and order, and reform/improve the service. I couldn’t give a s
t about one bike. But when I look at knife crime and rape, I am genuinely worried. Your belief that an Officer can write themselves off for three days and investigate a cycle theft is so far off the mark it's laughable
Mort7 said:
I'm not insulting anyone, and as I've stated previously I have enormous respect for police officers on the streets, but the recent Humberside Police case seems (to me at least) to be indicative of muddled priorities.
The police do not gain revenue from speeding tickets, but they do receive a kickback for each speed awareness course, don't they? My local force has four camera vans, all operated by civilian operators. They are placed in positions which appear to be primarily aimed at the production of revenue rather than the promotion of safety. I accept, however that this is my interpretation. I also accept that my view, as a humble member of the general population, may be different to yours.
Almost all Police force areas use safety camera vans The police do not gain revenue from speeding tickets, but they do receive a kickback for each speed awareness course, don't they? My local force has four camera vans, all operated by civilian operators. They are placed in positions which appear to be primarily aimed at the production of revenue rather than the promotion of safety. I accept, however that this is my interpretation. I also accept that my view, as a humble member of the general population, may be different to yours.
They are mostly run by safety camera partnerships .. these are not Police, the staff, vehicles etc are not Police
The locations where vans are deployed must meet certain criteria
The lead organisation with responsibility for the SCP’s are local authorities
The Police manage the prosecutions for the SCP’s for which they are paid
Speed awareness courses are very lucrative for the SCP’s and particularly the private companies that run them
The Police receive a percentage from each speed awareness course .. money which should be used for road safety
As each SCP is autonomous and independent the level of activity in each of the force areas can vary significantly
Because Derek says it’s a low priority in his area it doesn’t mean it is elsewhere. Hence why you can travel up the M1 or M6 and be safe doing 90 in one county and get nicked for far less just over the county border
warch said:
As ever in this country these days, people want things done but aren't willing to pay for them. Police can only do what they can within the constraints of the time and money they have available.
Our council tax is going up again this year as it did last year. I'm not happy as services are being cut within the councilThe one element I am happy with was the police payment going up to pay for extra police. Great. Not seen any thou, So thats 2 years in a row they get more money and we see nothing. I'd be interested to know if the local forces pay for training or is that a central budget? If its the local force fair enough maybe thats why were not seeing the benefit yet?
The police could make a bloody fortune by offering off duty officers traffic duty for a few hours,
Sit in un marked cars at traffic lights with a video cam and bang they'd make a fortune. Every £60 fine the off duty cop gets £10 the rest goes into the force.
996owner said:
So thats 2 years in a row they get more money and we see nothing.
Do you think police officers should get a pay rise, year on year? Most jobs would hope for an inflation linked pay rise and police should be no different, so perhaps some of that extra cash has gone there. Elroy Blue said:
What about the thirty other crimes they're carrying. The serious assaults, the burglaries, thefts, counterfeit currencies and the three/four extra crimes they pick up every day. All need investigating. Then there's the spontaneous arrests, the MISPERS, the mental health watches, the road closures, the RTCs, Domestics, Risk Management Plans, Safeguarding.
Your belief that an Officer can write themselves off for three days and investigate a cycle theft is so far off the mark it's laughable
Approx 400k pedal cycles are stolen each year in England Your belief that an Officer can write themselves off for three days and investigate a cycle theft is so far off the mark it's laughable
That’s about 1100 every day of the year ...
That’s .. an awful lot of Cops needed if each one has a PC dedicated to it for three days
Earthdweller said:
Because Derek says it’s a low priority in his area it doesn’t mean it is elsewhere. Hence why you can travel up the M1 or M6 and be safe doing 90 in one county and get nicked for far less just over the county border
Forces with long sections of motorways in them are in receipt of a fund from central government to pay for policing. I believe, or at least it used to be, pro rata for the distance and usage. There is an obligation for motorways to be policed. The actual details of the requirement used to be online. With regards the variation in the cut-off point for speeding, I would agree that it is something to be abhorred. While I agree with with setting local requirements, a high proportion of drivers cut across county boundaries. It should be consistent.
Derek Smith said:
Forces with long sections of motorways in them are in receipt of a fund from central government to pay for policing. I believe, or at least it used to be, pro rata for the distance and usage. There is an obligation for motorways to be policed. The actual details of the requirement used to be online.
With regards the variation in the cut-off point for speeding, I would agree that it is something to be abhorred. While I agree with with setting local requirements, a high proportion of drivers cut across county boundaries. It should be consistent.
But it isn’t .. and Traffic Management was devolved to local authorities and is no longer a Police functionWith regards the variation in the cut-off point for speeding, I would agree that it is something to be abhorred. While I agree with with setting local requirements, a high proportion of drivers cut across county boundaries. It should be consistent.
How many times do you cross a local authority border and the speed limit on the road you are on inexplicably changes
I think I read somewhere recently that less than 2% of speeding offences are detected by Police Officers
The funding for motorway policing has fallen considerably since the HA ( now HE ) took over the patrol and traffic management functions on the strip
Police are now secondary responders to incidents .. it is not the golden goose it was at all, to the extent that my old force has just pulled out of the Regional Motorway unit
perhaps we are, in world terms, a society of inveterate law breakers, why Scotland, with a similar population as Finland needs 2.5 times the number of rozzers is an eye-popping indictment of our recidivism, or maybe, and it is quite a likely skenario, Police Finn are more efficient and effective coppers.
Big-Bo-Beep said:
perhaps we are, in world terms, a society of inveterate law breakers, why Scotland, with a similar population as Finland needs 2.5 times the number of rozzers is an eye-popping indictment of our recidivism, or maybe, and it is quite a likely skenario, Police Finn are more efficient and effective coppers.
Isn’t every man in Finland in the Army ? I thought they all got conscripted at 18 and then stay in as a reserve until they’re 50
Their national defence is based around locals going native into the woods isn’t it .. I seem to recall them making mincemeat of the Red Army
I suppose if everyone has an AK47 indoors ( and knows how to use it) it might lower the burglary figures
Elroy Blue said:
What about the thirty other crimes they're carrying. The serious assaults, the burglaries, thefts, counterfeit currencies and the three/four extra crimes they pick up every day. All need investigating. Then there's the spontaneous arrests, the MISPERS, the mental health watches, the road closures, the RTCs, Domestics, Risk Management Plans, Safeguarding.
Your belief that an Officer can write themselves off for three days and investigate a cycle theft is so far off the mark it's laughable
I think you took this post rather literally. This was in response to Potholes challenge. Your belief that an Officer can write themselves off for three days and investigate a cycle theft is so far off the mark it's laughable
I clearly was not considering any other work, just thinking of the time necessary for one investigation into one bike crime
Did you read the links?
Once again, I am NOT having a dig at the police, and yes I understand resources are constrained.
You are being defensive and you don’t need to be,
The problem isn’t a shortage of officers, it is, much like the NHS, inappropriate demand.
80% of an active job queue will be “concern for safety” type incidents.
Dog running loose, ring the police
Kids messing about and have started a small fire. Call the police
Neighbours being noisy. Call the police
Not heard from your long lost cousin for a while? Why go round, just call the police they’ll sort it.
Friend posted a mildly attention seeking status on Facebook? Ring the police
Etc etc etc
Unfortunately call handlers , and more importantly their managers, don’t have the balls to say no, in case that dog bites someone, that child burns them self...
80% of an active job queue will be “concern for safety” type incidents.
Dog running loose, ring the police
Kids messing about and have started a small fire. Call the police
Neighbours being noisy. Call the police
Not heard from your long lost cousin for a while? Why go round, just call the police they’ll sort it.
Friend posted a mildly attention seeking status on Facebook? Ring the police
Etc etc etc
Unfortunately call handlers , and more importantly their managers, don’t have the balls to say no, in case that dog bites someone, that child burns them self...
Mort7 said:
I have a huge amount of respect for the officers on the streets, but those in charge, and the Government, clearly have little understanding of how the general public would like to see the police operate.
We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.
I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.
Name calling on social media? You mean brutal bullying that has led to some young people taking their own lives?We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.
I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.
You consider that a lower priority than petty vandalism?
It’s 2020 and not 1980. Times have moved on and progressed.
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