Are the Police Service fit for purpose anymore?
Discussion
Tango13 said:
La Liga said:
orked with a few senior manager over the years. They all cared about crime / victims.
Also:
You're making it up as you go along.
In 2018-19, fewer than 8% of offences led to a suspect being charged or ordered to appear in court.Also:
You're making it up as you go along.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849
Maybe people have given up on reporting crime as they know the police will achieve f
k all?Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Tango13 said:
La Liga said:
orked with a few senior manager over the years. They all cared about crime / victims.
Also:
You're making it up as you go along.
In 2018-19, fewer than 8% of offences led to a suspect being charged or ordered to appear in court.Also:
You're making it up as you go along.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849
Maybe people have given up on reporting crime as they know the police will achieve f
k all?Crime often isn’t easy to detect and needs proving beyond reasonable doubt. A very high threshold which requires very strong evidence.
It also depends on crime type. Generally the more serious the more likely it is to be detected due to greater resourcing and time spent investigating.
Derek Smith said:
Look on the bright side. Perhaps we could sell off all the empty prisons and use the money to fund extra police.
Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
If the prison service took a leaf from the Norwegian system then we could indeed sell off some prisons...Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Nor...
Tango13 said:
Derek Smith said:
Look on the bright side. Perhaps we could sell off all the empty prisons and use the money to fund extra police.
Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
If the prison service took a leaf from the Norwegian system then we could indeed sell off some prisons...Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Nor...
Can't resist posting this pic again some years on.
Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet fk all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth?
Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
edit to add: wonder what type of vehicles said scum are stealing today?
Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet f
k all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth? Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
edit to add: wonder what type of vehicles said scum are stealing today?
Edited by dandarez on Sunday 23 February 21:06
dandarez said:
Can't resist posting this pic again some years on.
Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet fk all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth?
Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
How did they deal with your complaint?Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet f
k all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth? Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
Pothole said:
dandarez said:
Can't resist posting this pic again some years on.
Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet fk all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth?
Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
How did they deal with your complaint?Stolen broad daylight, by low loader fully signwritten, from major UK car manufacturer's car park.
Handbrake was good and hard on, vehicle locked, hood up, alarmed if I recall, in full open view (almost in the position it is in pic) well populated area. Survived quite a bit, well, l it was driven all round Europe and even on the 'ring. New expensive roll over bar just fitted.
They (scum) had some gall, they didn't break in they just hooked up a chain tow and dragged it (tyre marks proved so) up onto low loader.
Escaped with car and drove on main trunk road, not even covered up, open to view easily, past cameras for 14 miles to garage (where scum sell parts it was discovered - read on).
Was even spotted on route by a friend in a café near main road. Hard to miss, eh?
Police called.
Did sweet f
k all, well what's a secondhand MX5 worth? Next day, the owners found out (easily!) where car was stored, they contacted police again (especially as they were threatened - large spanners wielded etc, and very sensible not to take the law into one's own hands).
Now the laughable bit. Police phoned the said (thieving) garage and asked (probably politely!) if they had a car on their premises which matched the vivid description and registration plate?
'No.'
End of story.
The group, one of whom was my son, who part-owned said vehicle, lost confidence in the police.
And you wonder why?
oh nearly forgot, said car.
It probably wasn't, they (group) realised it had probably been stripped and parts all sold.
All young apprentices at the time, ie busy lives so just carried on, one of those things. Me? I wanted to take it further, but they didn't. Perhaps I should have done. But again, you need to take time out. Even then everybody is too busy.
Derek Smith said:
Look on the bright side. Perhaps we could sell off all the empty prisons and use the money to fund extra police.
Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Shouldn't the role of the police be to prevent crime rather than catch criminals after the fact? Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Derek Smith said:
Look on the bright side. Perhaps we could sell off all the empty prisons and use the money to fund extra police.
Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Shouldn't the role of the police be to prevent crime rather than catch criminals after the fact? Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Pothole said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Shouldn't the role of the police be to prevent crime rather than catch criminals after the fact?
Not sure if serious...To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
I came into this thread assuming the biggest issue was the police being throttled by paper work. I still think this is a real issue. We do need accurate records but maybe we can improve the process.
But, I was staggered to read that the police force has reduced over the last 40 years while the population has increased by 20M. even ignoring the increasing administrative burden officers are under, its unreasonable to expect the police force not to grow with population.
I have not lived in the UK for 20 years so my observations aren’t that relevant. But, whenever I visit, my experience of the police is always positive. They have been both polite and funny with my kids. I admit my experiences are not after being the victim, or perpetrator, of crime.
When I compare my experience of the police in other countries, it is night and day better in the UK. In the US they all have Judge Dred syndrome and should be avoided. There’s also the element that the police in the UK follow the law (mostly) and avoid unnecessary confrontation (mostly). In the US they have a habit of antagonizing.
Finally, in the US, if you are Related to or friendly with an officer he/she can give you a get out of jail free card. When in trouble with the law you present your I.d. With your card and the arresting officer can then use their discretion on how the law is applied. There are different levels of “card” starting with paper and going to gold metal cards. My mother in law was let off a 20+mph ticket because the judge ate at her restaurant. I’ve “bought a ticket down” which is me paying $450 to make it go away.
Also, If you are in public office there is an unwritten rule that before you arrest a person you have to check with their towns police. One example of this was a politician who was caught driving way over the limit On Long Island. The arresting officer called Hoboken PD and asked if the person was in “good standing”. Hoboken Pd replied “Do your job”. Normally, the response is “yes” and the person would be helped home. Yes, that’s right, pulled for drink driving and helped home. But in this case the “do your job” response was so unexpected that the Long Island office asked again. To which he was told again to do his job and so the politician was arrested. The politician went to the press and used this as an example of corruption and bias...... because he was done for drink driving. The Uk really doesn’t want to go down this road.
I have managed managers for many years. My number one message is “Do not make your employees job impossible and then complain about them not being successful”. That’s where the police in the UK is today.
But, I was staggered to read that the police force has reduced over the last 40 years while the population has increased by 20M. even ignoring the increasing administrative burden officers are under, its unreasonable to expect the police force not to grow with population.
I have not lived in the UK for 20 years so my observations aren’t that relevant. But, whenever I visit, my experience of the police is always positive. They have been both polite and funny with my kids. I admit my experiences are not after being the victim, or perpetrator, of crime.
When I compare my experience of the police in other countries, it is night and day better in the UK. In the US they all have Judge Dred syndrome and should be avoided. There’s also the element that the police in the UK follow the law (mostly) and avoid unnecessary confrontation (mostly). In the US they have a habit of antagonizing.
Finally, in the US, if you are Related to or friendly with an officer he/she can give you a get out of jail free card. When in trouble with the law you present your I.d. With your card and the arresting officer can then use their discretion on how the law is applied. There are different levels of “card” starting with paper and going to gold metal cards. My mother in law was let off a 20+mph ticket because the judge ate at her restaurant. I’ve “bought a ticket down” which is me paying $450 to make it go away.
Also, If you are in public office there is an unwritten rule that before you arrest a person you have to check with their towns police. One example of this was a politician who was caught driving way over the limit On Long Island. The arresting officer called Hoboken PD and asked if the person was in “good standing”. Hoboken Pd replied “Do your job”. Normally, the response is “yes” and the person would be helped home. Yes, that’s right, pulled for drink driving and helped home. But in this case the “do your job” response was so unexpected that the Long Island office asked again. To which he was told again to do his job and so the politician was arrested. The politician went to the press and used this as an example of corruption and bias...... because he was done for drink driving. The Uk really doesn’t want to go down this road.
I have managed managers for many years. My number one message is “Do not make your employees job impossible and then complain about them not being successful”. That’s where the police in the UK is today.
Agammemnon said:
Pothole said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Shouldn't the role of the police be to prevent crime rather than catch criminals after the fact?
Not sure if serious...To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
h0b0 said:
But, I was staggered to read that the police force has reduced over the last 40 years while the population has increased by 20M.
How many police do you estimate are on duty and deployable right now in England and Wales ?London has 25% of the police so let's take the capital out of the equation.
How many cops to cover from Berwick on Tweed down to Cornwall ?
Red 4 said:
h0b0 said:
But, I was staggered to read that the police force has reduced over the last 40 years while the population has increased by 20M.
How many police do you estimate are on duty and deployable right now in England and Wales ?London has 25% of the police so let's take the capital out of the equation.
How many cops to cover from Berwick on Tweed down to Cornwall ?
Pothole said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Derek Smith said:
Look on the bright side. Perhaps we could sell off all the empty prisons and use the money to fund extra police.
Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Shouldn't the role of the police be to prevent crime rather than catch criminals after the fact? Oh, wait, then the police would result more than the 12% of crimes (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49986849) and there'd be a lot more offenders so we'd need more prisons. I obviously hadn't thought that one through. But then, I'm not alone there.
Are the police not meant to prevent crime?
h0b0 said:
I grew up in a small village in the middle of no where. We had a local Bobby who everyone knew. They centralized that service with the nearest town and over night the relationship with the police changed. That was part of the reduction per capita that leads to the situation the UK is in now. If we are to reminisce about the “good old days” then we would need a similar level of policing when they were really part of the community. (The same could be said about local doctors doing house visits and possibly milk men)
I'm sure that's also to do with how man power is used.Again as per my post above, if it takes 2 officers 40 minutes to get rid of one bolshy drunk there will simply never be enough man power. It's impossible.
There are more police officers now than in 1960 as a proportion of the population. They don't deal with parking or directing traffic, and in theory the CPS should have taken away some of the prosecution work. The police in 1960 didn't have helicopters, decent radios or tasers, and had far fewer cars. Of course criminals are better equipped now too, but even so I find the lack of resources argument hard to swallow entirely. We are doing something wrong.
Population from Google. Historical police numbers from the Home Office, rounded up to 72,000 officers policing 52 million people (722 people per police officer), compared to 122,000 police officers today policing 66.5 million people giving 540 people per officer.
I take the point about there being more safeguards against misconduct now, and that is good, but if we're using around 50% more officers per capita and still facing more crime then surely something has gone wrong?
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I'm sure that's also to do with how man power is used.
Again as per my post above, if it takes 2 officers 40 minutes to get rid of one bolshy drunk there will simply never be enough man power. It's impossible.
There are more police officers now than in 1960 as a proportion of the population. They don't deal with parking or directing traffic, and in theory the CPS should have taken away some of the prosecution work. The police in 1960 didn't have helicopters, decent radios or tasers, and had far fewer cars. Of course criminals are better equipped now too, but even so I find the lack of resources argument hard to swallow entirely. We are doing something wrong.
Population from Google. Historical police numbers from the Home Office, rounded up to 72,000 officers policing 52 million people (722 people per police officer), compared to 122,000 police officers today policing 66.5 million people giving 540 people per officer.
I take the point about there being more safeguards against misconduct now, and that is good, but if we're using around 50% more officers per capita and still facing more crime then surely something has gone wrong?
I'm going to take a punt here and suggest policing demand may be somewhat higher in 2012 than 1959... Again as per my post above, if it takes 2 officers 40 minutes to get rid of one bolshy drunk there will simply never be enough man power. It's impossible.
There are more police officers now than in 1960 as a proportion of the population. They don't deal with parking or directing traffic, and in theory the CPS should have taken away some of the prosecution work. The police in 1960 didn't have helicopters, decent radios or tasers, and had far fewer cars. Of course criminals are better equipped now too, but even so I find the lack of resources argument hard to swallow entirely. We are doing something wrong.
Population from Google. Historical police numbers from the Home Office, rounded up to 72,000 officers policing 52 million people (722 people per police officer), compared to 122,000 police officers today policing 66.5 million people giving 540 people per officer.
I take the point about there being more safeguards against misconduct now, and that is good, but if we're using around 50% more officers per capita and still facing more crime then surely something has gone wrong?
I wonder if the police in 1959 recorded nearly 20 million incidents like the like the police in 2012 did. Or had complex processes. Or dealt with 280,000 missing person reports. Or dealt with much MH. Or had most of the population with their own phone...
Etc x 10,000.
Pothole said:
Agammemnon said:
Principles of policing
To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
Almost 200 years old. A few things have changed since then.To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
La Liga said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I'm sure that's also to do with how man power is used.
Again as per my post above, if it takes 2 officers 40 minutes to get rid of one bolshy drunk there will simply never be enough man power. It's impossible.
There are more police officers now than in 1960 as a proportion of the population. They don't deal with parking or directing traffic, and in theory the CPS should have taken away some of the prosecution work. The police in 1960 didn't have helicopters, decent radios or tasers, and had far fewer cars. Of course criminals are better equipped now too, but even so I find the lack of resources argument hard to swallow entirely. We are doing something wrong.
Population from Google. Historical police numbers from the Home Office, rounded up to 72,000 officers policing 52 million people (722 people per police officer), compared to 122,000 police officers today policing 66.5 million people giving 540 people per officer.
I take the point about there being more safeguards against misconduct now, and that is good, but if we're using around 50% more officers per capita and still facing more crime then surely something has gone wrong?
I'm going to take a punt here and suggest policing demand may be somewhat higher in 2012 than 1959... Again as per my post above, if it takes 2 officers 40 minutes to get rid of one bolshy drunk there will simply never be enough man power. It's impossible.
There are more police officers now than in 1960 as a proportion of the population. They don't deal with parking or directing traffic, and in theory the CPS should have taken away some of the prosecution work. The police in 1960 didn't have helicopters, decent radios or tasers, and had far fewer cars. Of course criminals are better equipped now too, but even so I find the lack of resources argument hard to swallow entirely. We are doing something wrong.
Population from Google. Historical police numbers from the Home Office, rounded up to 72,000 officers policing 52 million people (722 people per police officer), compared to 122,000 police officers today policing 66.5 million people giving 540 people per officer.
I take the point about there being more safeguards against misconduct now, and that is good, but if we're using around 50% more officers per capita and still facing more crime then surely something has gone wrong?
I wonder if the police in 1959 recorded nearly 20 million incidents like the like the police in 2012 did. Or had complex processes. Or dealt with 280,000 missing person reports. Or dealt with much MH. Or had most of the population with their own phone...
Etc x 10,000.
Agammemnon said:
Pothole said:
Agammemnon said:
Principles of policing
To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
Almost 200 years old. A few things have changed since then.To prevent crime and disorder..............................
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
(Courtesy of that nice Mr Peel)
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