Are the Police Service fit for purpose anymore?

[Electro1980]

Mort7 said:

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

Answer me this:

How many people die or have life changing injuries each year as a result of burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour and vandalism, and how much do these crimes cost society?

How many people die or have life changing injuries each year as a result of speeding drivers, and how much does this cost society?

The problem isn’t the police and their priorities but that the average persons idea of the cost and damage of particular crimes is totally out of line with the reality. It’s the same with sentencing. People call for longer harsher sentences again and again, when the reality is they do not work and when asked about what sentences should be the general public actually end up somewhere close to the reality, and normally slightly less.

[Red 4]

Gargamel said:

I'd be grateful if everyone wanting to argue about following orders and such like could just ps off to any other NP&E thread thanks!

On a positive note, I will indeed write again to my MP to suggest a wide ranging Royal Commission. I think the management of the Police Service has indeed become managerial and more about budgets and resources than good principles and outcomes.

I too am very grateful for the work the Police do, I see myself as a natural supporter of the Police, I am just disappointed with some of the things I read and the results. I would like to see change.

Do the maths on the number of officers on duty and deployable.

There are roughly 90k in E&W outside London. See if you can work out how many are available right now to cover E&W.

You appeared to be saying current police numbers are sufficient in your opening post.

Edited by Red 4 on Wednesday 19th February 14:33

[Pothole]

Gargamel said:

I also agree with those commenting that the demand for policing in area that aren't / or shouldn't be a priority for the Police is a factor.

The public generally are keen to assert rights, but not necessarily take accountability or responsibility.

There appears to be an inability or reluctance to understand resourcing and proportionality of response, too. Although that's the same in any A&E department when it's busy. Everyone thinks they and their issue are the most important thing any force has to deal with at any given time.

[Derek Smith]

Gargamel said:

Hi Derek,

I think in trying to provoke a discussion, I may have appeared to be antagonistic, this is not the case. I would like to see the Police Service and those dedicated individuals and teams working within it reap the rewards of their efforts.

I was not looking for a thread full of sticks with which to beat the Police and I have recently read a number of reports on Bicycle theft, Rape convictions, availability of Detectives (employment terms for junior detectives seem no longer fit for purpose), then on burglary etc where again and again the trend lines are down.

I think working practices and employment terms are an issue, but I am slightly tired of the perpetual incremental changes that have resulted in a vastly different Policing experience compared to 30 years ago.

The whole thing needs a reboot. Including the relationship between the CPS and the Police.

The problem is that no one makes any suggestions for us to discuss.

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act revolutionised and reformed the way suspects were treated. The service needs something similar for the job description. It lost one or two things, but if that's the price, then it was well spent.

I joined my first force in 1975. The professionalism, workload and honesty of the individual officer is now so much improved that it makes me feel embarrassed; and I was fairly hard working. Yet we were supported, in all the dishonesty, corruption, laziness and deviousness, by the politically right. It seems odd, in fact it is bewildering, as to why much of the political right has turned against the service.

I used to regularly speak with serving officers from my second force, and their workloads are astonishing. Their performance levels are remarkably high. Yet we have moans and groans from those who know little about what goes on.

What everyone should do is ask themselves what other police force from around the world would they prefer above the one they have, and why. That's make for a great discussion. The French? They have a 'home beat' force. It costs a fortune. The German police have a reputation for efficiency. It costs a fortune. I'd prefer to be arrested by English/Welsh police, whether I was guilty or not, that German or French. So which one is more efficient?

The service is not perfect. Nothing is. To prove how poor the modern current English/Welsh police are we often have pointed out on here the current and modern case of Hillsborough, or some other historical event. Or they criticise the fact that the police treated XR with kid gloves when they needed to be forcefully removed from the roads, and that PC Savage smashed a car window to get at a suspect he had mistakenly identified. Oh, and what's the name of that officer who, in a demonstration, pushed someone over?

Most people don't know what they want from a police service. Perhaps that's a good point from the service's point of view. However, the government doesn't know either.

[Condi]

Mort7 said:

I have a huge amount of respect for the officers on the streets, but those in charge, and the Government, clearly have little understanding of how the general public would like to see the police operate.

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.

Your post is complete nonsense, the police have a huge number of important jobs and the public are by no means the best people to decided which is most important. Neither do the police protect the human rights of criminals (thats a legal job), nor do they go about attempting to be seen as 'woke' (whatever you mean by that sentence). Finally, once we are free of the EU how does that change the budget, staff numbers, number of crimes, or priorities of the police in the UK?

[techguyone]

Arguably it all began to wrong when they became a 'service' rather than a 'force'

It'll not end well with the current hands-off approach especially with the XR tossers.

The only other option I can see happening is when Joe Public has had enough and gives XR a quick hands on demonstration of how little support they actually have from the public. Like on the tube train.

[alfaman]

LordGrover said:

alfaman said:

The cambridge incident is a complete disgrace. Standing by while a bunch of anarchists cause criminal damage, and block the highway.

Youtube response.

Just saw that . Doesn't deal with the vandalism incident though .

However listening to his criteria.. it would be possible to set up several other roadblocks as a peaceful protest against the XR road block ... And insist the other roadblocks would stay out unless XR fked off and also paid £££ For the criminal damage

[alfaman]

Hosenbugler said:

TPSA7514 said:

LordGrover said:

alfaman said:

The cambridge incident is a complete disgrace. Standing by while a bunch of anarchists cause criminal damage, and block the highway.

Youtube response.

The You Tube thing is pathetic. He is getting slaughtered quite rightly in the comments

Agreed, I could not beleive what I was hearing. Utterly mental. Wonder if he will bother to read the comments.

He's a Police Superintendent? Sounds like The Head of Wokeness and Diversity At The Students Union. About as hard and tough on crime as wet sponge

[768]

Gargamel said:

Solutions ?

Keep them away from Facebook, Twitter and face recognition testing. Just leave them to quietly get on with the job without making up new things to do.

[turbobloke]

alfaman said:

Hosenbugler said:

TPSA7514 said:

LordGrover said:

alfaman said:

The cambridge incident is a complete disgrace. Standing by while a bunch of anarchists cause criminal damage, and block the highway.

Youtube response.

The You Tube thing is pathetic. He is getting slaughtered quite rightly in the comments

Agreed, I could not beleive what I was hearing. Utterly mental. Wonder if he will bother to read the comments.

He's a Police Superintendent? Sounds like The Head of Wokeness and Diversity At The Students Union. About as hard and tough on crime as wet sponge

Hopefully, Deputy Head...as we know, when things go wrong, deputy heads will roll.

[turbobloke]

Condi said:

Mort7 said:

I have a huge amount of respect for the officers on the streets, but those in charge, and the Government, clearly have little understanding of how the general public would like to see the police operate.

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.

Your post is complete nonsense, the police have a huge number of important jobs and the public are by no means the best people to decided which is most important. <snip>

In some circumstances - MoP may well not know what resources are available, for example. In other aspects, as 'clients' of the service, the public are ideally placed to judge police actions or inactions.

Moreover, the public is the only constituency that matters when it comes to policing by consent, something that BiB make a big deal of and rightly so. Policing by consent requires that police words and actions command the confidence and respect of the public, the precise opposite to what's happening in Cambridge.

[oyster]

turbobloke said:

Elroy Blue said:

Please do write to your MP and demand that the Police shouldn't be spending 80% of their time dealing with mental health cases, shouldn't be responsible for every teenager whose late getting back to their children's home every evening, shouldn't be responsible for the welfare of every homeless person, then perhaps we might have more time to spend on actual crime. You might actually achieve something more than you would venting on PH

Venting or discussing? Venting makes it look like an emotive/irrational response, when the responses so far are reasonable and justified.

Check out the responses to that Cambs Police XR tweet if you think it's OK, it's certainly not OK to lose the confidence and support of such a large proportion of the public. Many won't have the time to respond to tweets, so it's likely an underestimate of the tide of local dissatisfaction.

Fair point about writing to MPs, however, when police are occupied by protests in the 20% of their time not spent dealing with mental health issues etc, it's not compulsory to get it wrong as seen recently in Cambridge.

Further up the thread we had someone complaining the police act too much on what is said on Twitter. Now you're saying they should have more notice of what people say on it.

Just let the police get on with their job. They're doing it fantastically.

[Rewe]

Mort7 said:

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

Could you explain how you arrived at this bit because it doesn’t make any sense?

[WinstonWolf]

alfaman said:

Hosenbugler said:

TPSA7514 said:

LordGrover said:

alfaman said:

The cambridge incident is a complete disgrace. Standing by while a bunch of anarchists cause criminal damage, and block the highway.

Youtube response.

The You Tube thing is pathetic. He is getting slaughtered quite rightly in the comments

Agreed, I could not beleive what I was hearing. Utterly mental. Wonder if he will bother to read the comments.

He's a Police Superintendent? Sounds like The Head of Wokeness and Diversity At The Students Union. About as hard and tough on crime as wet sponge

I couldn't bring myself to listen to him, but the comments all seem to say the same thing. Big mistake from the police in actively supporting XR...

[turbobloke]

oyster said:

turbobloke said:

Elroy Blue said:

Please do write to your MP and demand that the Police shouldn't be spending 80% of their time dealing with mental health cases, shouldn't be responsible for every teenager whose late getting back to their children's home every evening, shouldn't be responsible for the welfare of every homeless person, then perhaps we might have more time to spend on actual crime. You might actually achieve something more than you would venting on PH

Venting or discussing? Venting makes it look like an emotive/irrational response, when the responses so far are reasonable and justified.

Check out the responses to that Cambs Police XR tweet if you think it's OK, it's certainly not OK to lose the confidence and support of such a large proportion of the public. Many won't have the time to respond to tweets, so it's likely an underestimate of the tide of local dissatisfaction.

Fair point about writing to MPs, however, when police are occupied by protests in the 20% of their time not spent dealing with mental health issues etc, it's not compulsory to get it wrong as seen recently in Cambridge.

Further up the thread we had someone complaining the police act too much on what is said on Twitter. Now you're saying they should have more notice of what people say on it.

What makes you think I ought to / need to agree with another comment and what odds either way? A weird idea. The public is indeed the constituency that matters with regard to policing by consent, the police do need to maintain public confidence and respect by their words and actions.

oyster said:

Just let the police get on with their job. They're doing it fantastically.

In some aspects they're doing a great job but not in Cambridge at the moment.

Not sure why you or anyone would want to silence any critique. Police won't improve their 'service' with pats on the helmet. Consumers / customers are entitled to offer their perspective, and with policing by consent it's essential.

Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 19th February 15:47

[Ed.]

Electro1980 said:

Mort7 said:

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

Answer me this:

How many people die or have life changing injuries each year as a result of burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour and vandalism, and how much do these crimes cost society?

How many people die or have life changing injuries each year as a result of speeding drivers, and how much does this cost society?

The problem isn’t the police and their priorities but that the average persons idea of the cost and damage of particular crimes is totally out of line with the reality. It’s the same with sentencing. People call for longer harsher sentences again and again, when the reality is they do not work and when asked about what sentences should be the general public actually end up somewhere close to the reality, and normally slightly less.

Would you classify not feeling safe in your family home, anxiety, trouble sleeping life changing?
Ignoring shop thefts under a £200 may be good for police time today but the message to a generation that theft is ok is going to cost more in the long term surely?
Repetitive vandalism has been enough to close youth centre's, aren't they meant to steer people away from crime?

[Condi]

turbobloke said:

In some aspects they're doing a great job but not in Cambridge at the moment.

Not sure why you or anyone would want to silence any critique. Police won't improve their 'service' with pats on the helmet. Consumers / customers are entitled to offer their perspective, and with policing by consent it's essential.

The danger is when people bang on about stuff without understanding what the police are actually doing already, and how well they're actually managing with the existing resources available to them.

There are roughly the same number of police officers now as there were in 2003, and yet the UK population has gone up by 11%. The police are also expected to look into a much wider range of crimes (historical sex abuse, online fraud, etc), than they used to, and no doubt the paperwork has increased too. To get more from the police requires an increase in numbers, which has to be paid for either by increases taxes or by taking money from other parts of the budget.

[xjay1337]

I can't speak globally but I feel my local police service are decent.

Their FB and Twitter pages are kept up to date, with actually useful information, and every week there is a post with the "most important" crimes / appeals put out.

Generally I see a fair amount of police "patrolling" so credit to my local group.

[techguyone]

Rewe said:

Mort7 said:

We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.

Could you explain how you arrived at this bit because it doesn’t make any sense?

I don't know why, there's not even any big words there, made sense to me. Try reading it again. Repeatedly. Until you get it.

[Gargamel]

Perhaps this is one of those areas where what the public want and what the reality is for the police diverge.

Shoplifting, bicycle theft or similar. The public would like an investigation, and arrest, prosecution etc.

They don’t want to hear, Police Priorities, scare resources or ‘its not worth it’. And they certainly don’t want a blanket policy - we no longer investigate or send any one to a routine domestic break in.

Now the Police may be making all the right choices for resources and workload, but the customers aren’t happy with the service.

I hope the additional 20,000 officers happens, but hearing that it takes 4 hours to process someone through custody and all of that time the officer is off at the station, means a very understandable reluctance to arrest.

I’d like to see working practices change, but I suspect that requires a change to the legal process and evidential requirement of the current system.