Shooting in Germany...

[s1962a]

andy_s said:

s1962a said:

...but you have to admit that the PH response on a far right attack that kills people, vs an Islamist attack that kills people is different, and the former pretty quiet.

Threat mechanism.

I googled that, nothing came up. What does it mean?

[andy_s]

s1962a said:

andy_s said:

s1962a said:

...but you have to admit that the PH response on a far right attack that kills people, vs an Islamist attack that kills people is different, and the former pretty quiet.

Threat mechanism.

I googled that, nothing came up. What does it mean?

Just that you are more aware/concerned about something that is or is perceived to be a threat to you or your family than something that isn't. Islamic terrorism targets 'westerners' let's say, so we, as westerners predominantly, become interested, curious and suspicious - we then chatter more. Far-Right terrorists target non-westerners, so we [as westerners] are less directly threatened personally so pay it less immediate visceral attention. We're not as invested, even though we feel the same horror at a human or moral level.
You can scale this up or down and apply to either side and find explanations for things, including the acts themselves, that are perhaps more coherent than an articulation mediated through conscious process.

[Escapegoat]

andy_s said:

Just that you are more aware/concerned about something that is or is perceived to be a threat to you or your family than something that isn't. Islamic terrorism targets 'westerners' let's say, so we, as westerners predominantly, become interested, curious and suspicious - we then chatter more. Far-Right terrorists target non-westerners, so we [as westerners] are less directly threatened personally so pay it less immediate visceral attention. We're not as invested, even though we feel the same horror at a human or moral level.
You can scale this up or down and apply to either side and find explanations for things, including the acts themselves, that are perhaps more coherent than an articulation mediated through conscious process.

You can see it in the coronavirus thread, too. All the youngsters aren't worried because they perceive that it only kills "coffin dodgers". Meanwhile, the Boomers in the thread are having sleepless nights.

[Electro1980]

Digga said:

s1962a said:

Interesting points, and quite logical. It's interesting how this level of debate isn't entertained when there is an Islamist extremist attack.

Very different dynamics though.

With a far right individual, they are socially and societally conservative (small "c") wanting things not to change (or even to revert to an earlier time).

With an Islamist - whether indigenous or immigrant - they are radical, insomuch as they want their host society to change, to adapt to 'their' view of Islam.

Both dangerous nutters. In their own sweet way.

I disagree. Both are conservative, and both want to protect the “purity” of “their” ideology. Most Islamic terrorists have no huge interest in converting the west, but want a caliphate in the Middle East and North Africa. The difference is that the Islamic terrorists carry out attacks primarily in Islamic and western countries (to a lesser extent in China and Russia, which is linked to different issues) where as the far right attack in the west and support and promote military action against Islamic countries.

[s1962a]

andy_s said:

s1962a said:

andy_s said:

s1962a said:

...but you have to admit that the PH response on a far right attack that kills people, vs an Islamist attack that kills people is different, and the former pretty quiet.

Threat mechanism.

I googled that, nothing came up. What does it mean?

Just that you are more aware/concerned about something that is or is perceived to be a threat to you or your family than something that isn't. Islamic terrorism targets 'westerners' let's say, so we, as westerners predominantly, become interested, curious and suspicious - we then chatter more. Far-Right terrorists target non-westerners, so we [as westerners] are less directly threatened personally so pay it less immediate visceral attention. We're not as invested, even though we feel the same horror at a human or moral level.
You can scale this up or down and apply to either side and find explanations for things, including the acts themselves, that are perhaps more coherent than an articulation mediated through conscious process.

Thats quite some assumptions you're making there. The victims of Islamist terrorism and far right terrorism don't seem to discriminate between any of us, so we are all targets. Unless you think far right terrorists won't target you for some reason, but will me?

[Digga]

Electro1980 said:

Digga said:

s1962a said:

Interesting points, and quite logical. It's interesting how this level of debate isn't entertained when there is an Islamist extremist attack.

Very different dynamics though.

With a far right individual, they are socially and societally conservative (small "c") wanting things not to change (or even to revert to an earlier time).

With an Islamist - whether indigenous or immigrant - they are radical, insomuch as they want their host society to change, to adapt to 'their' view of Islam.

Both dangerous nutters. In their own sweet way.

I disagree. Both are conservative, and both want to protect the “purity” of “their” ideology. Most Islamic terrorists have no huge interest in converting the west, but want a caliphate in the Middle East and North Africa. The difference is that the Islamic terrorists carry out attacks primarily in Islamic and western countries (to a lesser extent in China and Russia, which is linked to different issues) where as the far right attack in the west and support and promote military action against Islamic countries.

Yes, I suppose culturally, you could argue Western, liberal democracy is the upstart and Islam represents conservative tradition. Certainly, the ideas of the ultra-extreme - about women and homosexuals for example - are very backward to contemporary Western eyes.

[s1962a]

Digga said:

Electro1980 said:

Digga said:

s1962a said:

Interesting points, and quite logical. It's interesting how this level of debate isn't entertained when there is an Islamist extremist attack.

Very different dynamics though.

With a far right individual, they are socially and societally conservative (small "c") wanting things not to change (or even to revert to an earlier time).

With an Islamist - whether indigenous or immigrant - they are radical, insomuch as they want their host society to change, to adapt to 'their' view of Islam.

Both dangerous nutters. In their own sweet way.

I disagree. Both are conservative, and both want to protect the “purity” of “their” ideology. Most Islamic terrorists have no huge interest in converting the west, but want a caliphate in the Middle East and North Africa. The difference is that the Islamic terrorists carry out attacks primarily in Islamic and western countries (to a lesser extent in China and Russia, which is linked to different issues) where as the far right attack in the west and support and promote military action against Islamic countries.

Yes, I suppose culturally, you could argue Western, liberal democracy is the upstart and Islam represents conservative tradition. Certainly, the ideas of the ultra-extreme - about women and homosexuals for example - are very backward to contemporary Western eyes.

far right extermism seem to be against anything liberal, including homosexuality, womens rights, and they also are against muslims and jews. They probably have more in common with each other in what they hate (islamist and far right extremists) than what we represent here in the west.

[Digga]

s1962a said:

Digga said:

Electro1980 said:

Digga said:

s1962a said:

Interesting points, and quite logical. It's interesting how this level of debate isn't entertained when there is an Islamist extremist attack.

Very different dynamics though.

With a far right individual, they are socially and societally conservative (small "c") wanting things not to change (or even to revert to an earlier time).

With an Islamist - whether indigenous or immigrant - they are radical, insomuch as they want their host society to change, to adapt to 'their' view of Islam.

Both dangerous nutters. In their own sweet way.

I disagree. Both are conservative, and both want to protect the “purity” of “their” ideology. Most Islamic terrorists have no huge interest in converting the west, but want a caliphate in the Middle East and North Africa. The difference is that the Islamic terrorists carry out attacks primarily in Islamic and western countries (to a lesser extent in China and Russia, which is linked to different issues) where as the far right attack in the west and support and promote military action against Islamic countries.

Yes, I suppose culturally, you could argue Western, liberal democracy is the upstart and Islam represents conservative tradition. Certainly, the ideas of the ultra-extreme - about women and homosexuals for example - are very backward to contemporary Western eyes.

far right extermism seem to be against anything liberal, including homosexuality, womens rights, and they also are against muslims and jews. They probably have more in common with each other in what they hate (islamist and far right extremists) than what we represent here in the west.

Yes, I think you're probably not wrong - both extremes have some very similar (backward) values.

[AJL308]

aeropilot said:

janesmith1950 said:

Germany has a right wing problem bubbling under the surface. I can see it growing if the German economy continues to struggle.

It's was bubbling under the surface 40+ years ago.....

West German politics did their best to sweep it under the carpet for decades because of Germany's past......but denying its there doesn't make it go away, when the policies of the Govt are helping fuel the problem.

It started bubbling way above the surface after unification...........and

Unified German politics have done their best to sweep it under the carpet for decades because of Germany's past......but denying its there doesn't make it go away, when the policies of the Govt are helping fuel the problem.

The huge elephant in the room that is Germany's past don't help Germany deal with the problems of its present or its future.

Again, this isn't confined to Germany, its an issue elsewhere in the EU, but again, the problem of Germany's past, and the fact that they are the economic engine room for the EU focuses the spoptlight on them even more.

Did they have no imagination as to how allowing in a million totally unchecked foreigners would end up massively fueling the extant loonies?

[AJL308]

s1962a said:

Yes, but do you think the victims care which of these types killed them or hurt them? Also, don't you think Islamist extremists can also be mentally ill individuals?

I agree with your logic, but you have to admit that the PH response on a far right attack that kills people, vs an Islamist attack that kills people is different, and the former pretty quiet.

The following of any religion to such an extreme point (or perhaps just any point at all) is perhaps a sign of mental illness?

Brevik in Norway was probably mentally ill (or had some sort of extreme personality disorder) and he challenged the authorities to say so. They wouldn't because, in essence, there would have been nothing between him and any other religiously motivated terrorist and we can't have people with extreme religious views labelled as mentally ill when they clearly are because that's intolerant.

[JMGS4]

JMGS4 said:

Eric Mc said:

JMGS4 said:

Now 11 dead, probably turkish drug mafia killings..... the shooter has also been found dead in a flat.... typical signs of this type of revenge murder. The final killer will probably be on his way back to Erdoganstan

Latest reports don't seem to reflect this. The gunman was apparently posting a lot of anti-immigrant messages on various social media sites.

Badly translated text in GB press perhaps..... german press (which I quoted) say different.... mind you there are a LOT of theories out there.... and all shisha bars seem to be tied in to erdoganstan drug dealings over here....

Does seem to be a right wing nutter of german nationality.....worked at a bank and held weapons legally (sport shooter)
BTW for the above/previous bad mannered peeps..... I'm not a german.

[AJL308]

Escapegoat said:

andy_s said:

Just that you are more aware/concerned about something that is or is perceived to be a threat to you or your family than something that isn't. Islamic terrorism targets 'westerners' let's say, so we, as westerners predominantly, become interested, curious and suspicious - we then chatter more. Far-Right terrorists target non-westerners, so we [as westerners] are less directly threatened personally so pay it less immediate visceral attention. We're not as invested, even though we feel the same horror at a human or moral level.
You can scale this up or down and apply to either side and find explanations for things, including the acts themselves, that are perhaps more coherent than an articulation mediated through conscious process.

You can see it in the coronavirus thread, too. All the youngsters aren't worried because they perceive that it only kills "coffin dodgers". Meanwhile, the Boomers in the thread are having sleepless nights.

Same with Jeremy Corbyn; I was genuinely concerned at how fked we'd be if he became PM and our resulting return to the economy of the 1970's. My other half who is a lot younger than me just believed all his "free stuff" empty promises and thought everything would be great under him.

Then again she's terrified of Corona virus and I couldn't really give a fk because I can see it for the overdone hype it probably is.

[AJL308]

Digga said:

Yes, I suppose culturally, you could argue Western, liberal democracy is the upstart and Islam represents conservative tradition. Certainly, the ideas of the ultra-extreme - about women and homosexuals for example - are very backward to contemporary Western eyes.

Islam is the "upstart" when you consider that lots of Europe had far more "liberally democratic" cultures a thousand years or more before Islam was even a thing.

[Countdown]

AJL308 said:

Islam is the "upstart" when you consider that lots of Europe had far more "liberally democratic" cultures a thousand years or more before Islam was even a thing.

IIRC Islam started around about 600/700AD. When did "liberal western democracies" start being a thing? At a guess I'd say it was during the last 100 years with the adoption of various "rights" for Women, universal suffrage, the HRA, and so on....

[warch]

AJL308 said:

Islam is the "upstart" when you consider that lots of Europe had far more "liberally democratic" cultures a thousand years or more before Islam was even a thing.

Early Islamic culture was quite liberal, it is difficult to argue that the medieval Muslims in the Near East were less liberal and accepting of other people's religious and cultural beliefs than Christians during the same period (end of the 11th century to the start of the 14th century).

It is also true that several major religions have reacted to a loss of influence, difficulties with changes in society and political and cultural differences by becoming predominantly fundamentalist. Many countries involved in the Islamic Spring uprisings, obviously Daesh, but also non Muslim countries like the US and Israel have seen an increase in religious conservativism and fundamentalist beliefs.

[bitchstewie]

Far right nutjob who apparently had a manifesto, funky website, bunch of stuff on Youtube, and killed his mother before killing himself.

Hanau attack gunman railed against ethnic minorities online

[paua]

bhstewie said:

Far right nutjob who apparently had a manifesto, funky website, bunch of stuff on Youtube, and killed his mother before killing himself.

Hanau attack gunman railed against ethnic minorities online

Good link - thanks. Guy is a real tin-foil hat wearer.

[BMW A6]

One is rapidly arriving at the conclusion that these extreme right wing fanatics are a menace to society.

And they need eliminating.

Immediately.

[DeepEnd]

bhstewie said:

Far right nutjob who apparently had a manifesto, funky website, bunch of stuff on Youtube, and killed his mother before killing himself.

Hanau attack gunman railed against ethnic minorities online

Looks like he fancied himself as a superforecaster.

Ranting on about immigrants clearly not healthy.

[Jimbeaux]

Gecko1978 said:

"your friends have all moved out of your area new comers are different.

Then take the above apply it to a large enough group and sooner or later they are binary, they focus on one thing and say that is the reason my life is st!

I thought for a moment you were referring to most of the PHers running the Trump thread.