High Street chains favouring UK employees
Discussion
Mrr T said:
coffeebreath said:
Mrr T said:
They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.
Minimum wage in Romania is equal to 400 GBP a month. Romania has 96% home ownership, one of the highest in the world.
Average mortgage in Romania is equivalent to 32,000 GBP.
Average fruit picking wage in the UK is 8.88 per hour, exceeding minimum wage.
Average rent on a farm for fruit pickers is equivalent to £300 a month, sometimes as small as £150 a month.
You can probably do the math yourself to understand how good of a deal it is for some unskilled EE workers.
Do you know why Romania has such high levels of home ownership? Clue I do know.
Our construction sites were manned by Eastern Europeans. Back in the 80s it was the Irish. They received similar resentment at the time.
It’s always someone else’s fault for some.
I go in a lot of different businesses and it's not as simple as different sectors hiring different nationalities.
I suspect in a lot of cases, an establishment hires one Pole, who then suggests to their friends that it's not a bad gig, who then apply and so on.
As an example, we have contracts with Nando's and (until recently) Prezzo.
Nando's in our area are largely staffed by English people. Prezzo are almost exclusively staffed by Poles.
As an aside I once watched an utterly surreal team meeting in a Prezzo in which pre-meeting the entire workforce were chatting away animatedly in Polish, then the manager called the meeting to order in English, and the meeting was conducted in English, despite some of the kitchen staff clearly struggling to understand. Presumably an edict had come from above the meetings _must_ be held in English.
I suspect in a lot of cases, an establishment hires one Pole, who then suggests to their friends that it's not a bad gig, who then apply and so on.
As an example, we have contracts with Nando's and (until recently) Prezzo.
Nando's in our area are largely staffed by English people. Prezzo are almost exclusively staffed by Poles.
As an aside I once watched an utterly surreal team meeting in a Prezzo in which pre-meeting the entire workforce were chatting away animatedly in Polish, then the manager called the meeting to order in English, and the meeting was conducted in English, despite some of the kitchen staff clearly struggling to understand. Presumably an edict had come from above the meetings _must_ be held in English.
slightlyoldgit said:
An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior mechanic or a branch manager
Were there masses of apprenticeship spaces left unfilled?Are kwik fit struggling for workers?
(Genuine questions as I really don't know. Always dangerous to ask a question and not know the answer)
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior mechanic or a branch manager
Were there masses of apprenticeship spaces left unfilled?Are kwik fit struggling for workers?
(Genuine questions as I really don't know. Always dangerous to ask a question and not know the answer)
One of the main reasons they cite is the prejudice that apprenticeships have and are given by schools and I am a part of a local initiative with local schools and some simply don't want students to not go to uni as it reflects badly on them!
Whilst that kind of lunacy exists - it is a really hard sell to get kids into the right tract for them.
KwickFit I have to admit was just an off the cuff comment by example
slightlyoldgit said:
We have been working with local apprenticeship providers for the last 3-4 years and they are massively undersubscribed and I still hear and did this week that they have 4-5 times the positions (without looking for more) than they have candidates to fill them.
One of the main reasons they cite is the prejudice that apprenticeships have and are given by schools and I am a part of a local initiative with local schools and some simply don't want students to not go to uni as it reflects badly on them!
Whilst that kind of lunacy exists - it is a really hard sell to get kids into the right tract for them.
KwickFit I have to admit was just an off the cuff comment by example
I don't really employ many people any more but when we did we had loads of choice, even on the ridiculously low starting salary. This was office work though.One of the main reasons they cite is the prejudice that apprenticeships have and are given by schools and I am a part of a local initiative with local schools and some simply don't want students to not go to uni as it reflects badly on them!
Whilst that kind of lunacy exists - it is a really hard sell to get kids into the right tract for them.
KwickFit I have to admit was just an off the cuff comment by example
If they were good we always had to up their wages pretty early.
I do agree that non academic education has been and remains massively under resourced.
That's not going to change any time soon.
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
We have been working with local apprenticeship providers for the last 3-4 years and they are massively undersubscribed and I still hear and did this week that they have 4-5 times the positions (without looking for more) than they have candidates to fill them.
One of the main reasons they cite is the prejudice that apprenticeships have and are given by schools and I am a part of a local initiative with local schools and some simply don't want students to not go to uni as it reflects badly on them!
Whilst that kind of lunacy exists - it is a really hard sell to get kids into the right tract for them.
KwickFit I have to admit was just an off the cuff comment by example
I don't really employ many people any more but when we did we had loads of choice, even on the ridiculously low starting salary. This was office work though.One of the main reasons they cite is the prejudice that apprenticeships have and are given by schools and I am a part of a local initiative with local schools and some simply don't want students to not go to uni as it reflects badly on them!
Whilst that kind of lunacy exists - it is a really hard sell to get kids into the right tract for them.
KwickFit I have to admit was just an off the cuff comment by example
If they were good we always had to up their wages pretty early.
I do agree that non academic education has been and remains massively under resourced.
That's not going to change any time soon.
We always say every apprenticeship has a job at the end of it and they go from their apprenticeship salary - which we do £15k year one and £18k year two and in year three they move into their proper role - on 12 months probation but on the full salary for that role which is generally (depending on department) between £25k-£40k a year.
slightlyoldgit said:
Well the reason - or at least one of them - that I work with the providers and the schools initiative is that I want to try and get us the cream of the crop. I also and sincerely believe in them as not only an option, but much more important to our future than Persephone and her degree in social basket weaving! Or Tarquin and his PPE degree demanding £60k a year after his gap yar!
We always say every apprenticeship has a job at the end of it and they go from their apprenticeship salary - which we do £15k year one and £18k year two and in year three they move into their proper role - on 12 months probation but on the full salary for that role which is generally (depending on department) between £25k-£40k a year.
In my opinion that attitude comes from the government and wider society.We always say every apprenticeship has a job at the end of it and they go from their apprenticeship salary - which we do £15k year one and £18k year two and in year three they move into their proper role - on 12 months probation but on the full salary for that role which is generally (depending on department) between £25k-£40k a year.
They talk of "the brightest and best" "net contributors" and only judge people on SAT scores and tax paid.
Not that it really matters as this government will apply a series of special exemptions to keep the status quo but they will be able to say they "got immigration control done" and people will lap it up.
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Well the reason - or at least one of them - that I work with the providers and the schools initiative is that I want to try and get us the cream of the crop. I also and sincerely believe in them as not only an option, but much more important to our future than Persephone and her degree in social basket weaving! Or Tarquin and his PPE degree demanding £60k a year after his gap yar!
We always say every apprenticeship has a job at the end of it and they go from their apprenticeship salary - which we do £15k year one and £18k year two and in year three they move into their proper role - on 12 months probation but on the full salary for that role which is generally (depending on department) between £25k-£40k a year.
In my opinion that attitude comes from the government and wider society.We always say every apprenticeship has a job at the end of it and they go from their apprenticeship salary - which we do £15k year one and £18k year two and in year three they move into their proper role - on 12 months probation but on the full salary for that role which is generally (depending on department) between £25k-£40k a year.
They talk of "the brightest and best" "net contributors" and only judge people on SAT scores and tax paid.
Not that it really matters as this government will apply a series of special exemptions to keep the status quo but they will be able to say they "got immigration control done" and people will lap it up.
Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Sorry - I am confused - which attitude?
Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
The negative attitude towards apprenticeships.Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
rxe said:
Nickgnome said:
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs. You?
Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
My advice to anyone at a loss right now is to sign up for a free AWS Account, learn Python (loads of good tutorials on youtube), learn about Docker/Kubernetes/Openshift. Anyone with a respectable knowledge of these technologies can get a decent job. Once you've done the entry level developer thing, get proper certification and then you're looking at 70K+. Loads of companies crying out for these skills at the moment. Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
slightlyoldgit said:
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Sorry - I am confused - which attitude?
Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
The negative attitude towards apprenticeships.Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
Surely an apprenticeship and degree should be considered mutually complimentary, not mutually exclusive.
I have a mate who has lectured at Oxford, quantum physics in relation to computing and coincidentally another much younger lad who is studying quantum computing for his PhD thesis.
It would be rare if not non existent for those along with Lawyers, Judges, Research scientists, Physicists etc. Etc. Not to have obtained a degree.
If we want to be the best globally and at the cutting edge of whatever we chose then the degree and PhD will likely be the stepping stones.
That in no way should detract from Apprenticeships and vocational training, which may or may not lead on to further study.
AC43 said:
rxe said:
Nickgnome said:
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs. You?
Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
My advice to anyone at a loss right now is to sign up for a free AWS Account, learn Python (loads of good tutorials on youtube), learn about Docker/Kubernetes/Openshift. Anyone with a respectable knowledge of these technologies can get a decent job. Once you've done the entry level developer thing, get proper certification and then you're looking at 70K+. Loads of companies crying out for these skills at the moment. Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
Nickgnome said:
On that we can agree. I originate from a Dockyard city and anyone who came out from a dockyard apprenticeship were very highly regarded. If I recall correctly it was 7 years.
Surely an apprenticeship and degree should be considered mutually complimentary, not mutually exclusive.
I have a mate who has lectured at Oxford, quantum physics in relation to computing and coincidentally another much younger lad who is studying quantum computing for his PhD thesis.
It would be rare if not non existent for those along with Lawyers, Judges, Research scientists, Physicists etc. Etc. Not to have obtained a degree.
If we want to be the best globally and at the cutting edge of whatever we chose then the degree and PhD will likely be the stepping stones.
That in no way should detract from Apprenticeships and vocational training, which may or may not lead on to further study.
I don't disagree with the basic premise. The problem is the vast and I mean colossally vast percentage of jobs are not in that "degree / academic" space. Surely an apprenticeship and degree should be considered mutually complimentary, not mutually exclusive.
I have a mate who has lectured at Oxford, quantum physics in relation to computing and coincidentally another much younger lad who is studying quantum computing for his PhD thesis.
It would be rare if not non existent for those along with Lawyers, Judges, Research scientists, Physicists etc. Etc. Not to have obtained a degree.
If we want to be the best globally and at the cutting edge of whatever we chose then the degree and PhD will likely be the stepping stones.
That in no way should detract from Apprenticeships and vocational training, which may or may not lead on to further study.
In tech it is a hugely small percentage. We are a very successful UK software business, £100m turnover, net exporter and I have about 200 people in my overall team. That team includes R&D and that is less than 5% of that team and yes I have 2 PhD's and a published Professor in that team. They deal with Machine Learning, AI, NLP and other future tech.
I also have another 20 people in that wider team on at least the same or considerably higher wages than they are, due to management responsibility or other skills.
The degree, masters, PhD route is just so very narrow in relevance to technology now. To be perfectly honest I would rather take a precociously talented 19 year old with an attitude problem than some dry academic superstar - as I know which one is more likely to be both a pain in the arse to manage but come up with the brightest of ideas that could change (our little corner) of the world.
Also, the other half of the R&D team are precisely the opposite of the PhD ones - they also get on surprisingly well!
Nickgnome said:
yellowjack said:
I'm cool with the prospect of eating out becoming unaffordable to me, if it means my kids, both of whom have been to university, don't have to put up with s
tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".
I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs...tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
slightlyoldgit said:
I don't disagree with the basic premise. The problem is the vast and I mean colossally vast percentage of jobs are not in that "degree / academic" space.
In tech it is a hugely small percentage. We are a very successful UK software business, £100m turnover, net exporter and I have about 200 people in my overall team. That team includes R&D and that is less than 5% of that team and yes I have 2 PhD's and a published Professor in that team. They deal with Machine Learning, AI, NLP and other future tech.
I also have another 20 people in that wider team on at least the same or considerably higher wages than they are, due to management responsibility or other skills.
The degree, masters, PhD route is just so very narrow in relevance to technology now. To be perfectly honest I would rather take a precociously talented 19 year old with an attitude problem than some dry academic superstar - as I know which one is more likely to be both a pain in the arse to manage but come up with the brightest of ideas that could change (our little corner) of the world.
Also, the other half of the R&D team are precisely the opposite of the PhD ones - they also get on surprisingly well!
I think we can agree then. In tech it is a hugely small percentage. We are a very successful UK software business, £100m turnover, net exporter and I have about 200 people in my overall team. That team includes R&D and that is less than 5% of that team and yes I have 2 PhD's and a published Professor in that team. They deal with Machine Learning, AI, NLP and other future tech.
I also have another 20 people in that wider team on at least the same or considerably higher wages than they are, due to management responsibility or other skills.
The degree, masters, PhD route is just so very narrow in relevance to technology now. To be perfectly honest I would rather take a precociously talented 19 year old with an attitude problem than some dry academic superstar - as I know which one is more likely to be both a pain in the arse to manage but come up with the brightest of ideas that could change (our little corner) of the world.
Also, the other half of the R&D team are precisely the opposite of the PhD ones - they also get on surprisingly well!
A mix is a good thing and yes I concur the degree is not the the end in itself.
The wider the educational and social background can spark unfettered ideas.
It is unacceptable that we have demeaned apprenticeships in the way we have. We must also ensure that the education and training is not diluted to fulfil government statistics.
Nickgnome said:
slightlyoldgit said:
I don't disagree with the basic premise. The problem is the vast and I mean colossally vast percentage of jobs are not in that "degree / academic" space.
In tech it is a hugely small percentage. We are a very successful UK software business, £100m turnover, net exporter and I have about 200 people in my overall team. That team includes R&D and that is less than 5% of that team and yes I have 2 PhD's and a published Professor in that team. They deal with Machine Learning, AI, NLP and other future tech.
I also have another 20 people in that wider team on at least the same or considerably higher wages than they are, due to management responsibility or other skills.
The degree, masters, PhD route is just so very narrow in relevance to technology now. To be perfectly honest I would rather take a precociously talented 19 year old with an attitude problem than some dry academic superstar - as I know which one is more likely to be both a pain in the arse to manage but come up with the brightest of ideas that could change (our little corner) of the world.
Also, the other half of the R&D team are precisely the opposite of the PhD ones - they also get on surprisingly well!
I think we can agree then. In tech it is a hugely small percentage. We are a very successful UK software business, £100m turnover, net exporter and I have about 200 people in my overall team. That team includes R&D and that is less than 5% of that team and yes I have 2 PhD's and a published Professor in that team. They deal with Machine Learning, AI, NLP and other future tech.
I also have another 20 people in that wider team on at least the same or considerably higher wages than they are, due to management responsibility or other skills.
The degree, masters, PhD route is just so very narrow in relevance to technology now. To be perfectly honest I would rather take a precociously talented 19 year old with an attitude problem than some dry academic superstar - as I know which one is more likely to be both a pain in the arse to manage but come up with the brightest of ideas that could change (our little corner) of the world.
Also, the other half of the R&D team are precisely the opposite of the PhD ones - they also get on surprisingly well!
A mix is a good thing and yes I concur the degree is not the the end in itself.
The wider the educational and social background can spark unfettered ideas.
It is unacceptable that we have demeaned apprenticeships in the way we have. We must also ensure that the education and training is not diluted to fulfil government statistics.
The rest of the jobs are just not requiring it and our youth should be getting their asses into apprenticeships not debt!
slightlyoldgit said:
TheHat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Sorry - I am confused - which attitude?
Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
The negative attitude towards apprenticeships.Also, if the government is going to consider net contributors and tax paid - then they will be pushing apprenticeships like crazy!
A large scale shift to apprenticeships would put them out of a job.
Ed. said:
Is that any surprise? Teachers and staff in schools and university's have more in common with each other than those running apprenticeships. Many never left the education sector after graduation.
A large scale shift to apprenticeships would put them out of a job.
Truth be told - and being a bit of a contentious tosser that has no degree - I have had more than one run in over the last couple of years with those types and made the same observation. A large scale shift to apprenticeships would put them out of a job.
Strangely I am not the most popular person - despite my place on said local authority initiative - in certain education establishments in our area!
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