High Street chains favouring UK employees
Discussion
Sticks. said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Sticks. said:
For a lot of people, getting off a zero hours contract is progress, a career progression is just not realistic.
And there are thousands of jobs that are not on those as well - an exception does not make a rule. So do your zero hour contract to get some experience and then move on somewhere that does not operate like that based on that experience you gained. I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
slightlyoldgit said:
And that is just life - not everyone gets to be a six figure salaried c-suite executive, a powerfully built company director earning millions, a racing driver or a footballer.
I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
I'd like to think that. But often low expectations (and esteem) are a barrier to any progress. I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
Sticks. said:
slightlyoldgit said:
And that is just life - not everyone gets to be a six figure salaried c-suite executive, a powerfully built company director earning millions, a racing driver or a footballer.
I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
I'd like to think that. But often low expectations (and esteem) are a barrier to any progress. I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
There are dozens and dozens of ways and largely free of charge other than effort and time, which people in this country can choose to better themselves and their position in life. Learning new skills, building a better network of connections and just understanding how to be better at whatever it is you do. Or don't and If you want to wallow in a pit of self pity citing woe is me - then I have zero sympathy nor should you expect any handouts or support because you won't support yourself.
Probably makes me a horrible person in some folks eyes but cest la vie.
Edited by slightlyoldgit on Sunday 23 February 14:55
slightlyoldgit said:
A good friend of mine operates a number of Subway franchises and he has told me before now that the only reason he structures the jobs in the stores like he does 16-20 hours etc. Is exactly because he can only get people in on that basis so they don't loose their benefits.
He has also said he would much rather have fewer staff numbers and have them working 40 hour weeks, on shifts and in rotas and even paying some overtime. As he knows he would have less churn, be more comfortable knowing his staff are better skilled and experienced and more invested in the business. On top of that he would be far happier in training them up and moving them on to shift supervisors etc. All of which would help his business and those staff to become better and more productive and progress.
But whilst it is all 16-20 hour week folks, he gets a lot of churn and has to maintain over double the actual staff numbers than he would do with full time workers, which is a business overhead for him.
I'm not about to tell someone how they don't know what works best for their business and I don't doubt that for your friend that's true He has also said he would much rather have fewer staff numbers and have them working 40 hour weeks, on shifts and in rotas and even paying some overtime. As he knows he would have less churn, be more comfortable knowing his staff are better skilled and experienced and more invested in the business. On top of that he would be far happier in training them up and moving them on to shift supervisors etc. All of which would help his business and those staff to become better and more productive and progress.
But whilst it is all 16-20 hour week folks, he gets a lot of churn and has to maintain over double the actual staff numbers than he would do with full time workers, which is a business overhead for him.
I might be totally wrong, not sure as I'm not a business owner.
I just see lots of roles and people where you think the whole 8 hour thing is something stuck in the past.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:slightlyoldgit said:
A good friend of mine operates a number of Subway franchises and he has told me before now that the only reason he structures the jobs in the stores like he does 16-20 hours etc. Is exactly because he can only get people in on that basis so they don't loose their benefits.
He has also said he would much rather have fewer staff numbers and have them working 40 hour weeks, on shifts and in rotas and even paying some overtime. As he knows he would have less churn, be more comfortable knowing his staff are better skilled and experienced and more invested in the business. On top of that he would be far happier in training them up and moving them on to shift supervisors etc. All of which would help his business and those staff to become better and more productive and progress.
But whilst it is all 16-20 hour week folks, he gets a lot of churn and has to maintain over double the actual staff numbers than he would do with full time workers, which is a business overhead for him.
I'm not about to tell someone how they don't know what works best for their business and I don't doubt that for your friend that's true He has also said he would much rather have fewer staff numbers and have them working 40 hour weeks, on shifts and in rotas and even paying some overtime. As he knows he would have less churn, be more comfortable knowing his staff are better skilled and experienced and more invested in the business. On top of that he would be far happier in training them up and moving them on to shift supervisors etc. All of which would help his business and those staff to become better and more productive and progress.
But whilst it is all 16-20 hour week folks, he gets a lot of churn and has to maintain over double the actual staff numbers than he would do with full time workers, which is a business overhead for him.
I might be totally wrong, not sure as I'm not a business owner.
I just see lots of roles and people where you think the whole 8 hour thing is something stuck in the past.
slightlyoldgit said:
Sticks. said:
slightlyoldgit said:
And that is just life - not everyone gets to be a six figure salaried c-suite executive, a powerfully built company director earning millions, a racing driver or a footballer.
I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
I'd like to think that. But often low expectations (and esteem) are a barrier to any progress. I would contend - as I know a few - that most people have it within themselves to garner some kind of progression if they want it enough. Even if it is just being really good and experienced at whatever the lower paid job you do is. Might mean you are only ever destined for about £20k a year but if you and Mrs low paid get together and she is similar and part time - you can still be on £35k a year between you, which is with the tax benefits about the equivalent to a single person on £40k a year.
And that is not the end of the world it will just be some folks ceiling in life and so be it.
There are dozens and dozens of ways and largely free of charge other than effort and time, which people in this country can choose to better themselves and their position in life. Learning new skills, building a better network of connections and just understanding how to be better at whatever it is you do. Or don't and If you want to wallow in a pit of self pity citing woe is me - then I have zero sympathy nor should you expect any handouts or support because you won't support yourself.
Probably makes me a horrible person in some folks eyes but cest la vie.
Edited by slightlyoldgit on Sunday 23 February 14:55
I'm not saying they're happy with their lot, but as you suggested, the joint income was enough to cover the mortgage (ah, remember those days when you could get a mortgage on low earnings!), pay for a car every 10 years, have a holiday etc. That's all they seem to want. Perhaps it's about a work/life balance.
slightlyoldgit said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:eccles said:
I'm pretty sure the factory that shut down ran early and late shifts, until 10 at night. The McDonald's is 24hr as is the Costa and Screwfix are open long hours. Surely if businesses are open longer you can offer more 8hr shifts ?
I think a lot of businesses would say they benefit from not having staff around for 8 hours at a time.I'm pretty sure I've read articles about how the likes of McDonalds will plan shifts so they have cover exactly when they need it and if I'm honest I suspect if I were an employer I'd probably prefer not to have the "risk" of too many people guaranteed to be on 8 hour shifts.
I'm not saying it's right simply that if you took away benefits tomorrow I'm not sure employers would be rushing out to offer full/longer shifts.
He has also said he would much rather have fewer staff numbers and have them working 40 hour weeks, on shifts and in rotas and even paying some overtime. As he knows he would have less churn, be more comfortable knowing his staff are better skilled and experienced and more invested in the business. On top of that he would be far happier in training them up and moving them on to shift supervisors etc. All of which would help his business and those staff to become better and more productive and progress.
But whilst it is all 16-20 hour week folks, he gets a lot of churn and has to maintain over double the actual staff numbers than he would do with full time workers, which is a business overhead for him.
Candellara said:
We're in warehousing / e-commerce and 95% of our warehouse / fulfilment staff are Eastern European sourced via temp agencies.
Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.
We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).
Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)
This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.
I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders
The idiot in me wants to know why you don't pay the £12.20 agency rate to the worker direct? Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.
We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).
Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)
This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.
I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders
Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 13:38
eccles said:
I think you were right in your first post. I know a few people who worked in the factory in our town that shut down, many of them have been on the production line for many years.
I'm not saying they're happy with their lot, but as you suggested, the joint income was enough to cover the mortgage (ah, remember those days when you could get a mortgage on low earnings!), pay for a car every 10 years, have a holiday etc. That's all they seem to want. Perhaps it's about a work/life balance.
I know a few people like that too.I'm not saying they're happy with their lot, but as you suggested, the joint income was enough to cover the mortgage (ah, remember those days when you could get a mortgage on low earnings!), pay for a car every 10 years, have a holiday etc. That's all they seem to want. Perhaps it's about a work/life balance.
I've never directly asked them but my assumption was always that it's a mixture of being happy enough financially and perhaps being perfectly happy that, whilst making a bit less money, work starts at 8am and ends at 5am and that's that.
eccles said:
I think you were right in your first post. I know a few people who worked in the factory in our town that shut down, many of them have been on the production line for many years.
I'm not saying they're happy with their lot, but as you suggested, the joint income was enough to cover the mortgage (ah, remember those days when you could get a mortgage on low earnings!), pay for a car every 10 years, have a holiday etc. That's all they seem to want. Perhaps it's about a work/life balance.
That is very much the case, we are both from very average backgrounds and both have a fair few friends who are in this position and are quite happy on modest incomes, not owning a house but financing a modest car and having a holiday in the sun once a year. I'm not saying they're happy with their lot, but as you suggested, the joint income was enough to cover the mortgage (ah, remember those days when you could get a mortgage on low earnings!), pay for a car every 10 years, have a holiday etc. That's all they seem to want. Perhaps it's about a work/life balance.
In fact they have commented on more than one occasion to Mrs OG in particular when I have missed family events, school plays etc due to work. That they don't think that is worth it.
You can still buy a house and get a mortgage on a low income but you will only be able to afford a very modest house. There are plenty of houses around the UK provinces for circa £125k. Might take 15 years to save a £20k deposit and on a joint income of £40k you will get a mortgage to buy one.
With right to buy and shared ownership schemes you could even end up in a nice new build etc. Unlikely to get somewhere in London of course or other expensive locations - but there are plenty of inexpensive ones around this lovely nation of ours.
slightlyoldgit said:
Not looking on Rightmove - it is about the same as round my way, bit more I suppose.
Child care vouchers can cover a good chunk of nursery fees and that is only applicable until your kids are 5 and in school anyway - you choose to have children when you can afford them frankly, if you can't don't!
Either way a family of two adults on minimum wage can quite easily earn £2k a month (which is topped up with working tax credits as well at the minute by another £300 ish) and with £675 of rent and child care etc - it is more than possible to live a decent life.
I said 'where I live' in Norwich. I could move to the other side of the city where the schools are crap and there are lots of problems, but then I could also move up north and save a fortune. Child care vouchers can cover a good chunk of nursery fees and that is only applicable until your kids are 5 and in school anyway - you choose to have children when you can afford them frankly, if you can't don't!
Either way a family of two adults on minimum wage can quite easily earn £2k a month (which is topped up with working tax credits as well at the minute by another £300 ish) and with £675 of rent and child care etc - it is more than possible to live a decent life.
I could move into one of the bedsits for £400 a month and save even more.
The reality is, £16k a year is hard to live on for a lot of the UK.
I agree on having kids when you can afford it, the reality is very different though.
amusingduck said:
Why didn't you 'play the game' and replace her with someone more flexible?
Because her circumstances changed after she had already been with us for around 4 years. It is actually really difficult to get rid of someone, and to be honest it was someone who had always been good to us, would always help us when needed previously, so we didn't want to be assholes. Just that when you are a small business with very few staff things like that can cause real issues.
But it is what it is, she ended up leaving anyway as she found something else that suited her better hour wise anyway.
gizlaroc said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Not looking on Rightmove - it is about the same as round my way, bit more I suppose.
Child care vouchers can cover a good chunk of nursery fees and that is only applicable until your kids are 5 and in school anyway - you choose to have children when you can afford them frankly, if you can't don't!
Either way a family of two adults on minimum wage can quite easily earn £2k a month (which is topped up with working tax credits as well at the minute by another £300 ish) and with £675 of rent and child care etc - it is more than possible to live a decent life.
I said 'where I live' in Norwich. I could move to the other side of the city where the schools are crap and there are lots of problems, but then I could also move up north and save a fortune. Child care vouchers can cover a good chunk of nursery fees and that is only applicable until your kids are 5 and in school anyway - you choose to have children when you can afford them frankly, if you can't don't!
Either way a family of two adults on minimum wage can quite easily earn £2k a month (which is topped up with working tax credits as well at the minute by another £300 ish) and with £675 of rent and child care etc - it is more than possible to live a decent life.
I could move into one of the bedsits for £400 a month and save even more.
The reality is, £16k a year is hard to live on for a lot of the UK.
I agree on having kids when you can afford it, the reality is very different though.
We are actually still living in the same house we bought 19 years ago. We had a budget back then and could have had a 3 bed estate semi in a "nicer area" but we used the same budget and bought a nice individual detached place in just under an acre but was in an area that was classed as a lesser area to where we both lived and grew up - less than 10 miles away though. But we wanted a nicer house, with some land and potential to extend etc. Over the years the area has become quite nice, couple of newer estates cropped up, we have extended a few times and our mortgage is all but gone and we have a nice detached house in a decent area.
We also knew when we had the one child we both wanted and could afford we would privately educate him and we cut our cloth according to our means and desires.
So rather than spend money on moving house we have stayed where we are, put OldGit Jnr through a good school and are both happy and comfortable with that. We could have spent the money on a smaller house, spent more money again moving house to a state catchment area - we just chose not to.
Oh it is supposed to be hard - that is what makes you strive for more and to do better so it is not that way forever!
slightlyoldgit said:
That is very much the case, we are both from very average backgrounds and both have a fair few friends who are in this position and are quite happy on modest incomes, not owning a house but financing a modest car and having a holiday in the sun once a year.
In fact they have commented on more than one occasion to Mrs OG in particular when I have missed family events, school plays etc due to work. That they don't think that is worth it.
You can still buy a house and get a mortgage on a low income but you will only be able to afford a very modest house. There are plenty of houses around the UK provinces for circa £125k. Might take 15 years to save a £20k deposit and on a joint income of £40k you will get a mortgage to buy one.
With right to buy and shared ownership schemes you could even end up in a nice new build etc. Unlikely to get somewhere in London of course or other expensive locations - but there are plenty of inexpensive ones around this lovely nation of ours.
Where do you live? In fact they have commented on more than one occasion to Mrs OG in particular when I have missed family events, school plays etc due to work. That they don't think that is worth it.
You can still buy a house and get a mortgage on a low income but you will only be able to afford a very modest house. There are plenty of houses around the UK provinces for circa £125k. Might take 15 years to save a £20k deposit and on a joint income of £40k you will get a mortgage to buy one.
With right to buy and shared ownership schemes you could even end up in a nice new build etc. Unlikely to get somewhere in London of course or other expensive locations - but there are plenty of inexpensive ones around this lovely nation of ours.
gizlaroc said:
slightlyoldgit said:
That is very much the case, we are both from very average backgrounds and both have a fair few friends who are in this position and are quite happy on modest incomes, not owning a house but financing a modest car and having a holiday in the sun once a year.
In fact they have commented on more than one occasion to Mrs OG in particular when I have missed family events, school plays etc due to work. That they don't think that is worth it.
You can still buy a house and get a mortgage on a low income but you will only be able to afford a very modest house. There are plenty of houses around the UK provinces for circa £125k. Might take 15 years to save a £20k deposit and on a joint income of £40k you will get a mortgage to buy one.
With right to buy and shared ownership schemes you could even end up in a nice new build etc. Unlikely to get somewhere in London of course or other expensive locations - but there are plenty of inexpensive ones around this lovely nation of ours.
Where do you live? In fact they have commented on more than one occasion to Mrs OG in particular when I have missed family events, school plays etc due to work. That they don't think that is worth it.
You can still buy a house and get a mortgage on a low income but you will only be able to afford a very modest house. There are plenty of houses around the UK provinces for circa £125k. Might take 15 years to save a £20k deposit and on a joint income of £40k you will get a mortgage to buy one.
With right to buy and shared ownership schemes you could even end up in a nice new build etc. Unlikely to get somewhere in London of course or other expensive locations - but there are plenty of inexpensive ones around this lovely nation of ours.
slightlyoldgit said:
But if you have not earned to ability buy a house in the area you would really like then you can't have one and you move to where you can afford.
We are actually still living in the same house we bought 19 years ago. We had a budget back then and could have had a 3 bed estate semi in a "nicer area" but we used the same budget and bought a nice individual detached place in just under an acre but was in an area that was classed as a lesser area to where we both lived and grew up - less than 10 miles away though. But we wanted a nicer house, with some land and potential to extend etc. Over the years the area has become quite nice, couple of newer estates cropped up, we have extended a few times and our mortgage is all but gone and we have a nice detached house in a decent area.
We also knew when we had the one child we both wanted and could afford we would privately educate him and we cut our cloth according to our means and desires.
So rather than spend money on moving house we have stayed where we are, put OldGit Jnr through a good school and are both happy and comfortable with that. We could have spent the money on a smaller house, spent more money again moving house to a state catchment area - we just chose not to.
Oh it is supposed to be hard - that is what makes you strive for more and to do better so it is not that way forever!
I don't disagree with your way of thinking, I have moved a few times for work etc. We are actually still living in the same house we bought 19 years ago. We had a budget back then and could have had a 3 bed estate semi in a "nicer area" but we used the same budget and bought a nice individual detached place in just under an acre but was in an area that was classed as a lesser area to where we both lived and grew up - less than 10 miles away though. But we wanted a nicer house, with some land and potential to extend etc. Over the years the area has become quite nice, couple of newer estates cropped up, we have extended a few times and our mortgage is all but gone and we have a nice detached house in a decent area.
We also knew when we had the one child we both wanted and could afford we would privately educate him and we cut our cloth according to our means and desires.
So rather than spend money on moving house we have stayed where we are, put OldGit Jnr through a good school and are both happy and comfortable with that. We could have spent the money on a smaller house, spent more money again moving house to a state catchment area - we just chose not to.
Oh it is supposed to be hard - that is what makes you strive for more and to do better so it is not that way forever!
The place I am in now I had to move to as the bank would only lend me the money to buy my shop if I lived above it. I'm not looking for violins, it is a lovely Victorian building and our place is 3600 square foot with 14 rooms, so not some pokey flat above a kebab shop. Haha
But we had just bought a lovely Victorian Terrace in the right part of town that was over 4 floors and my wife adored it, we had finished getting it right and she was gutted at the time. This was a short term stop gap for a few months to get the mortgage. That was 15 years ago now and we will probably stay here for ever.
But also, a few of my friends who bought 10 years ago in that area could afford it, but wages have not moved for them, it is getting tighter for them now than it was then.
Last night I had the pleasure of listening to someone who owns care homes moaning about Brexit as it will cost him a fortune.
6 homes, 96 staff, of which less than 10 are British, 4 of them part timers at the weekend and the other managers.
He was paying an average of £10 an hour back in 2006. Last year he was paying 90% of them £8.50 an hour. Why? Because they are all from Europe, not all Eastern European either, quite a few Spanish and Italians, but they can afford that as many are here for a couple of years, they live in a shared house and the money they are earning is fun money.
He is moaning that his wage bill will go up at least 20% over the next few years.
The guy has a new 911, a new Range Rover and has one of the V12 Vantages as well, so I didn't share disgust at how stupid people were for voting Brexit.
But in reality if he was paying £10 an hour 15 years ago nearly, he should be paying £12 an hour or so now surely? Not £8.50.
And that is problem, inflation is far outpacing wage rises, so although many were 'managing' when they bought the house I think many thought it would get better, not harder.
So many people I know get stuck where they are because they have a mortgage, or because they have elderly family that need their support. When you get to a certain age just upping sticks and moving away from everything you know and love and leaving people who may rely on you is not that easy.
Norfolk is a bit of a strange place as wages are pretty low as an average and house prices are not.
Go to somewhere like Derby and it is the one of the cheapest places to live in the UK when you compare wages vs living costs. There it would be far easier easy to live on minimum wage I'm sure.
But, the whole argument is, for many, this conveyor belt of cheap imported labour should push up wages overall, time will tell.
It is no different to how we go over to Australia or Ibiza and take all the summer jobs from the locals as we are house sharing and just doing it for beer money. But it is not great for the locals who just want to earn a fair wage.
gizlaroc said:
I don't disagree with your way of thinking, I have moved a few times for work etc.
The place I am in now I had to move to as the bank would only lend me the money to buy my shop if I lived above it. I'm not looking for violins, it is a lovely Victorian building and our place is 3600 square foot with 14 rooms, so not some pokey flat above a kebab shop. Haha
But we had just bought a lovely Victorian Terrace in the right part of town that was over 4 floors and my wife adored it, we had finished getting it right and she was gutted at the time. This was a short term stop gap for a few months to get the mortgage. That was 15 years ago now and we will probably stay here for ever.
But also, a few of my friends who bought 10 years ago in that area could afford it, but wages have not moved for them, it is getting tighter for them now than it was then.
Last night I had the pleasure of listening to someone who owns care homes moaning about Brexit as it will cost him a fortune.
6 homes, 96 staff, of which less than 10 are British, 4 of them part timers at the weekend and the other managers.
He was paying an average of £10 an hour back in 2006. Last year he was paying 90% of them £8.50 an hour. Why? Because they are all from Europe, not all Eastern European either, quite a few Spanish and Italians, but they can afford that as many are here for a couple of years, they live in a shared house and the money they are earning is fun money.
He is moaning that his wage bill will go up at least 20% over the next few years.
The guy has a new 911, a new Range Rover and has one of the V12 Vantages as well, so I didn't share disgust at how stupid people were for voting Brexit.
But in reality if he was paying £10 an hour 15 years ago nearly, he should be paying £12 an hour or so now surely? Not £8.50.
And that is problem, inflation is far outpacing wage rises, so although many were 'managing' when they bought the house I think many thought it would get better, not harder.
So many people I know get stuck where they are because they have a mortgage, or because they have elderly family that need their support. When you get to a certain age just upping sticks and moving away from everything you know and love and leaving people who may rely on you is not that easy.
Norfolk is a bit of a strange place as wages are pretty low as an average and house prices are not.
Go to somewhere like Derby and it is the one of the cheapest places to live in the UK when you compare wages vs living costs. There it would be far easier easy to live on minimum wage I'm sure.
But, the whole argument is, for many, this conveyor belt of cheap imported labour should push up wages overall, time will tell.
It is no different to how we go over to Australia or Ibiza and take all the summer jobs from the locals as we are house sharing and just doing it for beer money. But it is not great for the locals who just want to earn a fair wage.
There are plenty of parts of the Midlands - Derby included as well as Coventry, Nuneaton, parts of Northampton and Leicestershire etc where you can live a modest but acceptable life on circa £35k a year between two of you. I know that as a lot of our friends do just that, some have decided to go the home ownership route and sacrificed other things to do that and others have not. One couple springs to mind, been renting the same house for 15 years which is in a really crappy area but both have new ish (less than 3 years old) cars - a Polo TFSI and an MX5, no kids though. The place I am in now I had to move to as the bank would only lend me the money to buy my shop if I lived above it. I'm not looking for violins, it is a lovely Victorian building and our place is 3600 square foot with 14 rooms, so not some pokey flat above a kebab shop. Haha
But we had just bought a lovely Victorian Terrace in the right part of town that was over 4 floors and my wife adored it, we had finished getting it right and she was gutted at the time. This was a short term stop gap for a few months to get the mortgage. That was 15 years ago now and we will probably stay here for ever.
But also, a few of my friends who bought 10 years ago in that area could afford it, but wages have not moved for them, it is getting tighter for them now than it was then.
Last night I had the pleasure of listening to someone who owns care homes moaning about Brexit as it will cost him a fortune.
6 homes, 96 staff, of which less than 10 are British, 4 of them part timers at the weekend and the other managers.
He was paying an average of £10 an hour back in 2006. Last year he was paying 90% of them £8.50 an hour. Why? Because they are all from Europe, not all Eastern European either, quite a few Spanish and Italians, but they can afford that as many are here for a couple of years, they live in a shared house and the money they are earning is fun money.
He is moaning that his wage bill will go up at least 20% over the next few years.
The guy has a new 911, a new Range Rover and has one of the V12 Vantages as well, so I didn't share disgust at how stupid people were for voting Brexit.
But in reality if he was paying £10 an hour 15 years ago nearly, he should be paying £12 an hour or so now surely? Not £8.50.
And that is problem, inflation is far outpacing wage rises, so although many were 'managing' when they bought the house I think many thought it would get better, not harder.
So many people I know get stuck where they are because they have a mortgage, or because they have elderly family that need their support. When you get to a certain age just upping sticks and moving away from everything you know and love and leaving people who may rely on you is not that easy.
Norfolk is a bit of a strange place as wages are pretty low as an average and house prices are not.
Go to somewhere like Derby and it is the one of the cheapest places to live in the UK when you compare wages vs living costs. There it would be far easier easy to live on minimum wage I'm sure.
But, the whole argument is, for many, this conveyor belt of cheap imported labour should push up wages overall, time will tell.
It is no different to how we go over to Australia or Ibiza and take all the summer jobs from the locals as we are house sharing and just doing it for beer money. But it is not great for the locals who just want to earn a fair wage.
We have another couple we know with two kids, have only recently (after nearly 15 years of saving) bought their first house and I don't know exactly what they earn but it is no more than £45k maybe £50k between them at best, he is a factory shift supervisor (who worked his way up from the presses) and she is a teaching assistant in a private school. Her parents helped with a £5k contribution to the process after her father retired recently but other than that, it was all them.
Care home guy sounds like one or two I know in our other circle of friends and you know what they are going to have to suck it up and cut their cloth accordingly.
The one thing a lot of folks don't seem to do in those circumstances is be willing to change employers and jobs to get ahead more - weird really as you would think it is bloody obvious you should do. As by doing that the wage inflation issue to some degree goes away as you move to earn more, if you just stay in the same job you are always going to get overtaken by inflation - sad but true.
slightlyoldgit said:
Honestly and probably harshly - then that's their problem, if you don't want to better whatever your lot in life is, in whatever way you can for you and your family (or just you if you don't have one) then frankly I just don't get it and (even more harshly) I personally think you deserve whatever existence you end up with.
There are dozens and dozens of ways and largely free of charge other than effort and time, which people in this country can choose to better themselves and their position in life. Learning new skills, building a better network of connections and just understanding how to be better at whatever it is you do. Or don't and If you want to wallow in a pit of self pity citing woe is me - then I have zero sympathy nor should you expect any handouts or support because you won't support yourself.
Probably makes me a horrible person in some folks eyes but cest la vie.
Possibly, almost certainly naive. If you really think people deserve their lot I think you're distant from what is reality for a lot of people. Quite what a person who's holding down two or more min wage jobs to keep their family with no spare time or cash can actually do to better themselves I don't know. What makes that less likely is they are often less well equipped to do so, from poor education, both at home and at school, and with lower expectations. Also the ability of the less well off to handle things like time off work for health issues, the cost of debt can exacerbate matters. There are dozens and dozens of ways and largely free of charge other than effort and time, which people in this country can choose to better themselves and their position in life. Learning new skills, building a better network of connections and just understanding how to be better at whatever it is you do. Or don't and If you want to wallow in a pit of self pity citing woe is me - then I have zero sympathy nor should you expect any handouts or support because you won't support yourself.
Probably makes me a horrible person in some folks eyes but cest la vie.
Edited by slightlyoldgit on Sunday 23 February 14:55
This came up in the week. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-42946...
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