High Street chains favouring UK employees

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

slightlyoldgit said:

Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.

I didn’t say absolution did I.

I know when I was 17 therefore technically not an adult and making that decision, a significant factor was the emphasis that a degree would guarantee me a career rather than just a job.

We have, unfortunately debased the benefit real apprenticeships.

Fair comment - but if anyone had really looked at the reality of that situation over the last 10-15 years, whilst we have been on this magic trajectory to getting 50% of the country into higher education - yawn...

Then they would have realised that was utterly and completely a false premise - if someone listens to and accepts bad advice it is not really the fault of the person dispensing it. I mean yes they are bloody stupid, but the point is if you are considering yourself mature enough to make the decision to undertake a given path then you are equally mature enough to do the rudimentary research to decide not to.

And I am pretty sure you were 18 before you actually started Uni - unless you skipped a school year in there somewhere.

[Mark Benson]

slightlyoldgit said:

Nickgnome said:

Mark Benson said:

The elephant in the room is that too many kids who'd previously have gone straight into a company at the bottom and been bright enough to work their way up the chain, now think their life chances are enhanced only if they get themselves £40k in debt going to study a degree which offers them no advantage at a 'University' that once taught kids useful vocational skills while on work placement.

Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.

Rightly or wrongly we as a society have emphasised the absolute need to get a degree. It’s hardly fair to point the finger at those students who do listen to their elders.

The majority do not undertake obscure degrees but in any case the subject is only partially relevant. University used to be there for the benefit of learning a subject that the student really enjoyed. Vocational degrees are not the be all and end all and can end up with a very restricted mindset.

Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.

I wasn't actually blaming the students, with successive governments' assistance, Universities have extended their remit and a degree has been seen as an essential part of education for far too many people.
I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

Thankfully I know of a few friend's kids now who have looked at the financial implications and are avoiding Universities, even though they've been awarded places so perhaps it's changing.

[TheHat]

Mark Benson said:

I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

.

Doing what instead?

[Nickgnome]

John Locke said:

We are already paying the (not very well) hidden costs of benefits to those who are not working, or working for below the true market rate and being subsidised by Tax Credits; when employers pay the proper rate, that tax burden will disappear, so the cost of living may even fall. Regardless, it is wrong for anyone working full time to be paid less than that which is needed for a decent standard of living, and if I have to pay an extra tenner when I go out for a meal, or an extra score on my weekly shop so that the person providing the service can live properly, then I'll suffer it.

Surely there are two issues here.

One is a minimum wage that allows a person to live without government subsidy but also to pay into a pension fund at a level which is sufficient to give them a pension from 68 or whatever age it is. This will obviously be significantly more than the current rate. It would additionally require a complete overhaul of the business and personal tax system.

It will mean that a number of companies may become unviable. One could argue that they should not have been in business anyway.

However the second issue is the risk of making some of our exports uncompetitive which would be a major own goal.

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

John Locke said:

We are already paying the (not very well) hidden costs of benefits to those who are not working, or working for below the true market rate and being subsidised by Tax Credits; when employers pay the proper rate, that tax burden will disappear, so the cost of living may even fall. Regardless, it is wrong for anyone working full time to be paid less than that which is needed for a decent standard of living, and if I have to pay an extra tenner when I go out for a meal, or an extra score on my weekly shop so that the person providing the service can live properly, then I'll suffer it.

Surely there are two issues here.

One is a minimum wage that allows a person to live without government subsidy but also to pay into a pension fund at a level which is sufficient to give them a pension from 68 or whatever age it is. This will obviously be significantly more than the current rate. It would additionally require a complete overhaul of the business and personal tax system.

It will mean that a number of companies may become unviable. One could argue that they should not have been in business anyway.

However the second issue is the risk of making some of our exports uncompetitive which would be a major own goal.

There is a reasonable assumption though that those that take lower paid roles early in life do actually progress to some degree. Not everyone is going to get to be a CEO or even on a £50k a year or £30k a year salary but they will by the same token not necessarily be on minimum wage their entire working career.

[Nickgnome]

slightlyoldgit said:

Nickgnome said:

slightlyoldgit said:

Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.

I didn’t say absolution did I.

I know when I was 17 therefore technically not an adult and making that decision, a significant factor was the emphasis that a degree would guarantee me a career rather than just a job.

We have, unfortunately debased the benefit real apprenticeships.

Fair comment - but if anyone had really looked at the reality of that situation over the last 10-15 years, whilst we have been on this magic trajectory to getting 50% of the country into higher education - yawn...

Then they would have realised that was utterly and completely a false premise - if someone listens to and accepts bad advice it is not really the fault of the person dispensing it. I mean yes they are bloody stupid, but the point is if you are considering yourself mature enough to make the decision to undertake a given path then you are equally mature enough to do the rudimentary research to decide not to.

And I am pretty sure you were 18 before you actually started Uni - unless you skipped a school year in there somewhere.

Nope I did not skip a year nor did many of my school mates of similar age. The commitment was made when we were 17.

I assume you consider that all organisations can never be held accountable for bad advice and all of the various actions on behalf of consumers should never have happened. That is rather silly to say the least.

[slightlyoldgit]

TheHat said:

Mark Benson said:

I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

.

Doing what instead?

An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior mechanic or a branch manager etc.

Edited by slightlyoldgit on Thursday 20th February 15:43

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

Nope I did not skip a year nor did many of my school mates of similar age. The commitment was made when we were 17.

I assume you consider that all organisations can never be held accountable for bad advice and all of the various actions on behalf of consumers should never have happened. That is rather silly to say the least.

Not at all, I am saying that all "adults" have a personal responsibility for the decisions they make and you were 18 when you started Uni and unless you are like me and your birthday is very late in August - you were 18 for some time before you started as well. So, you could very easily have backed out up until almost the very last minute - as one of my good friends daughters did last year and decided to take an apprenticeship instead.

Edited by slightlyoldgit on Thursday 20th February 15:46

[crankedup]

Nickgnome said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Coolbananas said:

Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.

Good times ahead!

I assume you're taking the piss but if I have to pay a quid for a bag of onions instead of 30p so the farm labourer can earn more than min wage then that's a good thing.

What happens when due to this wage inflation your cost of living exceeds your income?

I assume you request a rise.

Eventually that spiral leads to our exports being unaffordable by those with whom we wish to trade.

What happens then?

Are you assuming that those that we trade with are standing still with wage inflation.

[Nickgnome]

slightlyoldgit said:

TheHat said:

Mark Benson said:

I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

.

Doing what instead?

An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior person or even a branch manager etc.

Do we want to upskill our workforce or not?

Whilst I would not disagree that some students may have been better suited to vocational training if we really want to compete globally we have no option but to ensure as many as our young people as possible are degree educated.

It would be interesting to see where we sit statistically in the higher level education tables.

[crankedup]

Candellara said:

Sticks. said:

Perhaps the zero hours is the problem as much as anything? Anyone with a family or rent on that money is likely to be on Tax/Universal Credit, and from what I saw on TV the other day the two don't work together at all well.

We have a "base-line" fulltime crew (most are Eastern European also) which are full time but we have to staff for the troughs. As the business has grown, so have the number of full time staff but like other industries - ours is quite seasonal and we couldn't afford to be employing staff that had little to do. Our margins are such that every member of staff has to be productive from the moment they arrive to the moment they finish. Our customers and the consumer demands low cost of picking, packing, storage and delivery and this is reflected in our business operation.

Getting back to the staff, my experience is that most of the Eastern Europeans that we have are quite educated (alot have degrees). I'd guess that their own national "underclasses" remain in their own country of origin and are similar in terms of work ethic to the UK's great unwashed? Most of the migrants we have at least wish to go out and earn a living.

A bit controversial and a generalisation but, if I've the choice between hiring a Brit at £9 per hour or an Eastern European - i'll probably hire the migrant worker. In my experience over the last decade or so, they're harder working, more reliable, £ for £ - more intelligent, more grateful for employment, more flexible (extra shifts etc). Terrible thing to say - but very true and i'm sure many other employers feel the same. Hence, we'll up and lift much of our operation to the EU where the labour pool is bigger and more flexible

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 14:51

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 14:51

I’ve read many such tales as this over the years, is it because the money being earn’t is far more beneficial to the immigrant worker than the indigenous worker.?

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

slightlyoldgit said:

TheHat said:

Mark Benson said:

I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

.

Doing what instead?

An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior person or even a branch manager etc.

Do we want to upskill our workforce or not?

Whilst I would not disagree that some students may have been better suited to vocational training if we really want to compete globally we have no option but to ensure as many as our young people as possible are degree educated.

It would be interesting to see where we sit statistically in the higher level education tables.

As someone who has and does on a regular basis employ and interview a lot of candidates in the tech space - I can tell you that those that have come via the modern apprenticeship route and those going through them are on average considerably more skilled, better placed to progress and are the ones in the organisation where I work that have made the most progression.

That is not just "tech folks" either - I can think of and if I poke my head round the corner of my door see - one in particular who exited his apprenticeship 3 years ago and is now leading a team of 20 as a senior manager in the business and on £60k+ a year.

So saying vocational training is somehow inferior to a degree is utter tripe I am afraid!

[Oakey]

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

[Hosenbugler]

Candellara said:

We're in warehousing / e-commerce and 95% of our warehouse / fulfilment staff are Eastern European sourced via temp agencies.

Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.

We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).

Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)

This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.

I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 13:38

Here's the proposed criteria for future migration into the UK. The key point is third from bottom.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-po...

I foresee the bigger job agencies actively seeking out EU staff in their own countries to work in the lower skill sectors, should staffing become problematical. Seems sensible to me.

Edited by Hosenbugler on Thursday 20th February 15:58

[Nickgnome]

slightlyoldgit said:

As someone who has and does on a regular basis employ and interview a lot of candidates in the tech space - I can tell you that those that have come via the modern apprenticeship route and those going through them are on average considerably more skilled, better placed to progress and are the ones in the organisation where I work that have made the most progression.

That is not just "tech folks" either - I can think of and if I poke my head round the corner of my door see - one in particular who exited his apprenticeship 3 years ago and is now leading a team of 20 as a senior manager in the business and on £60k+ a year.

So saying vocational training is somehow inferior to a degree is utter tripe I am afraid!

Where did I use the word inferior? The fact that you inferred that meaning in my post is just incorrect.

[Mrr T]

Oakey said:

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.

[RicksAlfas]

Mark Benson said:

Thankfully I know of a few friend's kids now who have looked at the financial implications and are avoiding Universities, even though they've been awarded places so perhaps it's changing.

Apprenticeships are really getting pushed now by school careers advisers and industry bodies. It's a good thing and much more appropriate for many young adults than the crazy "must get a degree in anything" policy of the last 20 years or so.

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

slightlyoldgit said:

As someone who has and does on a regular basis employ and interview a lot of candidates in the tech space - I can tell you that those that have come via the modern apprenticeship route and those going through them are on average considerably more skilled, better placed to progress and are the ones in the organisation where I work that have made the most progression.

That is not just "tech folks" either - I can think of and if I poke my head round the corner of my door see - one in particular who exited his apprenticeship 3 years ago and is now leading a team of 20 as a senior manager in the business and on £60k+ a year.

So saying vocational training is somehow inferior to a degree is utter tripe I am afraid!

Where did I use the word inferior? The fact that you inferred that meaning in my post is just incorrect.

So I read this statement: -

Nickgnome said:

Whilst I would not disagree that some students may have been better suited to vocational training if we really want to compete globally we have no option but to ensure as many as our young people as possible are degree educated.

As saying that you believe to compete globally our workforce has to be degree educated and vocational based education, such as apprenticeships - does not achieve that.

Or did I read that incorrectly?

[Mark Benson]

slightlyoldgit said:

Nickgnome said:

slightlyoldgit said:

TheHat said:

Mark Benson said:

I also didn't say the majority undertook obscure degrees, but I am saying that a lot of people undertake unnecessary degrees (degrees awarded 1990 - 77,000. Degrees awarded 2017 - 414,000) and those people may well be better heading straight into employment.

.

Doing what instead?

An apprenticeship, learning a trade, self teaching something like programming or just going to work in KwikFit and working your way up through vocational learning over many years and end up as a supervisor, senior person or even a branch manager etc.

Do we want to upskill our workforce or not?

Whilst I would not disagree that some students may have been better suited to vocational training if we really want to compete globally we have no option but to ensure as many as our young people as possible are degree educated.

It would be interesting to see where we sit statistically in the higher level education tables.

As someone who has and does on a regular basis employ and interview a lot of candidates in the tech space - I can tell you that those that have come via the modern apprenticeship route and those going through them are on average considerably more skilled, better placed to progress and are the ones in the organisation where I work that have made the most progression.

That is not just "tech folks" either - I can think of and if I poke my head round the corner of my door see - one in particular who exited his apprenticeship 3 years ago and is now leading a team of 20 as a senior manager in the business and on £60k+ a year.

So saying vocational training is somehow inferior to a degree is utter tripe I am afraid!

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

[Nickgnome]

crankedup said:

Are you assuming that those that we trade with are standing still with wage inflation.

No