High Street chains favouring UK employees
Discussion
Of course EE are 'prepared' to do the work Yellowjack isn't, they earn 3-4x as much as they would do back home! If Poland started offering 3-4x as much as UK employers do for cleaning toilets Yellowjack might feel compelled to migrate to Poland to do just that!
It's a massive circle jerk! The Brits don't want to do those jobs because they don't think the pay is good enough so the Polish come here and fill those jobs because they don't think the same job back home pays enough, so then Poland has an influx of Ukranians to fill their low paid jobs because they don't think they're paid enough for the same job back in the Ukraine.
It's a massive circle jerk! The Brits don't want to do those jobs because they don't think the pay is good enough so the Polish come here and fill those jobs because they don't think the same job back home pays enough, so then Poland has an influx of Ukranians to fill their low paid jobs because they don't think they're paid enough for the same job back in the Ukraine.
Oakey said:
Mrr T said:
Oakey said:
Mrr T said:
How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?
You know he means they're sending that money back home.BBC said:
Migrant workers in the UK, many in low-paid jobs, are sending £8bn a year to support families in their home countries, says a report from the United Nations' education agency.
Condi said:
crankedup said:
House values in Bulgaria Poland and such like. just saying .
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
It might have been 'widely reported' but the truth is less than 0.3% of all child benefit paid in the UK goes abroad, and some of that is to places like Ireland and France.And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
To believe that we are sending vast quantities of money to Poland and Bulgaria in the form of benefits is simply not true, but makes a good headline for the Daily Mail.
hutchst said:
Sticks. said:
AIUI (and happy to be corrected if wrong) but EU migrant rules required a job to go to, or financial independence, or a return to the home country after 90 days. But not implemented in the UK when T May was Home Sec. Is that correct?
NoNickgnome said:
yellowjack said:
I'm cool with the prospect of eating out becoming unaffordable to me, if it means my kids, both of whom have been to university, don't have to put up with s
tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".
I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs. You?tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
Mrr T said:
Condi said:
crankedup said:
House values in Bulgaria Poland and such like. just saying .
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
It might have been 'widely reported' but the truth is less than 0.3% of all child benefit paid in the UK goes abroad, and some of that is to places like Ireland and France.And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
To believe that we are sending vast quantities of money to Poland and Bulgaria in the form of benefits is simply not true, but makes a good headline for the Daily Mail.
Once we voted for Brexit that piece of legislation went in the bin and it is now up to the negotiators to decide what happens.
crankedup said:
Then it makes your statement utterly worthless.
It does not. It’s clearly a relative position both in terms of inflation, wage increases and exchange rates. We are already uncompetitive in a number of sectors.
If a business becomes unviable due to labour costs or in fact any other burdens, the owners will either shut it down or move the business to a lower cost base area.
Sticks. said:
crankedup said:
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
AIUI (and happy to be corrected if wrong) but EU migrant rules required a job to go to, or financial independence, or a return to the home country after 90 days. But not implemented in the UK when T May was Home Sec. Is that correct?and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
Condi said:
crankedup said:
House values in Bulgaria Poland and such like. just saying .
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
It might have been 'widely reported' but the truth is less than 0.3% of all child benefit paid in the UK goes abroad, and some of that is to places like Ireland and France.And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.
To believe that we are sending vast quantities of money to Poland and Bulgaria in the form of benefits is simply not true, but makes a good headline for the Daily Mail.
The media certainly, and correctly flagged it up and created a storm to the extent that the Government took the issue to court in a bid to halt the situation, but were told of implications of EU Law. I do not know of the % being sent back to home Countries when the issue was ‘red hot’. However i did ensure another nail in the coffin regards U.K. membership.
Condi said:
Cameron did get it talked about at EU level, and had support from some other countries like Germany who are also paying benefits which go abroad. The idea was that benefits going overseas were going to be adjusted for income levels in different countries.
Once we voted for Brexit that piece of legislation went in the bin and it is now up to the negotiators to decide what happens.
Have you got any links. As far as I was aware it was always possible for the UK to place a resident test on child benefits so long as it applied to everyone equally. The issue with such a test is it would encourage them to bring the children to the UK when we would be responsible for the costs of education and healthcare. Once we voted for Brexit that piece of legislation went in the bin and it is now up to the negotiators to decide what happens.
crankedup said:
The U.K. opened its borders to all EU populations regardless as was required. being a member Country. The U.K. was incredibly useless at deporting those that hadn’t come to work but did claim benefits. I recall time and again illegal workers in all manner of ‘employment’. Needless to say neither employer or worker paid any taxes. Soft touch U.K. was the mantra back in the day. Can’t blame those that took advantage but it was another nail in the coffin for our membership. I googled
and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
For all your anger, please try and get things right, or do a bit of research. and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
The UK was not obliged to open its borders to all EU populations; when the group of 4 which included Poland and Bulgaria joined existing EU countries could phase in the numbers over time. The UK (under Tony Blair) was 1 of only 3 countries which allowed unhindered access from day 1. Furthermore, new arrivals in the UK from abroad cannot claim housing benefit, child benefit, or jobseekers allowance within the first 3 months.
Oakey said:
Of course EE are 'prepared' to do the work Yellowjack isn't, they earn 3-4x as much as they would do back home! If Poland started offering 3-4x as much as UK employers do for cleaning toilets Yellowjack might feel compelled to migrate to Poland to do just that!
It's a massive circle jerk! The Brits don't want to do those jobs because they don't think the pay is good enough so the Polish come here and fill those jobs because they don't think the same job back home pays enough, so then Poland has an influx of Ukranians to fill their low paid jobs because they don't think they're paid enough for the same job back in the Ukraine.
Yup, that’s was the sum of it.When the pound devalued many migrants went back home as their wages were hit badly. They only came here for the money, which is fair enough, when the money dropped off they go.It's a massive circle jerk! The Brits don't want to do those jobs because they don't think the pay is good enough so the Polish come here and fill those jobs because they don't think the same job back home pays enough, so then Poland has an influx of Ukranians to fill their low paid jobs because they don't think they're paid enough for the same job back in the Ukraine.
When the Bulgarians arrived in the U.K. they undercut the Polish workers wages.
Mrr T said:
They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.
Minimum wage in Romania is equal to 400 GBP a month. Romania has 96% home ownership, one of the highest in the world.
Average mortgage in Romania is equivalent to 32,000 GBP.
Average fruit picking wage in the UK is 8.88 per hour, exceeding minimum wage.
Average rent on a farm for fruit pickers is equivalent to £300 a month, sometimes as small as £150 a month.
You can probably do the math yourself to understand how good of a deal it is for some unskilled EE workers.
Mrr T said:
Have you got any links. As far as I was aware it was always possible for the UK to place a resident test on child benefits so long as it applied to everyone equally. The issue with such a test is it would encourage them to bring the children to the UK when we would be responsible for the costs of education and healthcare.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40061921Johnniem said:
Since there are now around 28% of all school leavers going to Uni it does not surprise me that these 'alarmingly intelligent' chaps are having a problem getting employment. I presume your son got a first or 2:1. It's pretty much the norm and a 2:1 means very little now. It has long been the norm in most firms that jobs (at a reasonable level) require good degrees. Our children all took degrees (whereas perhaps around 3 - 5 % of school leavers when I left school in the late '70's went to Uni) but most of them did so just to get a degree rather then get a career. Thankfully, in many professions (including my own - Surveying) it is possible to take an apprenticeship. I would highly recommend this route. There are just too many educated youngsters wanting too few jobs. Societal structure has diminished due, in part, to the changing labour market. I'm afraid that we have all been hoodwinked into believing a degree is the be all and end all of education. It isn't. Very often common sense is the best thing one can have, along with an enquiring mind and an interest in doing a good job. Service is not a dirty word.
I was a QS, so spent most of my working life in construction. We set up specific degree courses in Reading and Nottingham for our area of QSing. My original course had limited connection with my later career. I deluded myself I was going to be a F1 designer. I see no harm in your children doing a degree because they could. Why not. It’s about learning.
I’ve retired to an area with limited industry however there are opportunities for degree educated personnel in the electronics and Telecoms and IT sectors. A friend’s son has just joined Deloitte as a trainee and some other recent grads I know have all found reasonable career type positions, so there are opportunities for grads in their 20s.
They do all have a passion for a sport in which they have been successful which may be attractive to employers.
Johnniem said:
Since there are now around 28% of all school leavers going to Uni it does not surprise me that these 'alarmingly intelligent' chaps are having a problem getting employment. I presume your son got a first or 2:1. It's pretty much the norm and a 2:1 means very little now. It has long been the norm in most firms that jobs (at a reasonable level) require good degrees. Our children all took degrees (whereas perhaps around 3 - 5 % of school leavers when I left school in the late '70's went to Uni) but most of them did so just to get a degree rather then get a career. Thankfully, in many professions (including my own - Surveying) it is possible to take an apprenticeship. I would highly recommend this route. There are just too many educated youngsters wanting too few jobs. Societal structure has diminished due, in part, to the changing labour market. I'm afraid that we have all been hoodwinked into believing a degree is the be all and end all of education. It isn't. Very often common sense is the best thing one can have, along with an enquiring mind and an interest in doing a good job. Service is not a dirty word.
It was widely reported last year that we had finally reached the magical 50% - although I can see UCAS seems to say nearer that 28%. It is a degree at any level that is largely, in many and I would go as far as to say most professions - unnecessary and largely pointless.
It is also meaningless to be able to get to the highest levels, if I look at my fellow Cx colleagues in our business (which is a large global but UK based Tech PLC) out of the 7 of us only 3 have degrees at all, only one of those is relevant to the position they hold; the CMO has a marketing degree. The other two are Engineering and Sociology both of whom agree were an utter waste of time in relation to their careers.
If I then look at my direct reports, out of 9 only two have degrees; one is Computer Science and is relevant to what she does, the other is PPE and is not!
We just need to stop this fallacy and act responsibly for the next generations.
crankedup said:
The U.K. opened its borders to all EU populations regardless as was required. being a member Country. The U.K. was incredibly useless at deporting those that hadn’t come to work but did claim benefits. I recall time and again illegal workers in all manner of ‘employment’. Needless to say neither employer or worker paid any taxes. Soft touch U.K. was the mantra back in the day. Can’t blame those that took advantage but it was another nail in the coffin for our membership. I googled
and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
You do post rubbish.and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
The UK limited benefits to EU immigrants seeking work was Jobseekers. Up to 24 £57 a week for 3 months. A woman with a children normally could not get Child Benefit until working because she was not counted as resident.
Why would an EE seeking work, work illegally when they can work legally?
I am sure some became self employed and evaded tax just as some Brits do. However, I am sure the vast majority where on PAYE.
coffeebreath said:
Mrr T said:
They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.
Minimum wage in Romania is equal to 400 GBP a month. Romania has 96% home ownership, one of the highest in the world.
Average mortgage in Romania is equivalent to 32,000 GBP.
Average fruit picking wage in the UK is 8.88 per hour, exceeding minimum wage.
Average rent on a farm for fruit pickers is equivalent to £300 a month, sometimes as small as £150 a month.
You can probably do the math yourself to understand how good of a deal it is for some unskilled EE workers.
Do you know why Romania has such high levels of home ownership? Clue I do know.
crankedup said:
The U.K. opened its borders to all EU populations regardless as was required. being a member Country. The U.K. was incredibly useless at deporting those that hadn’t come to work but did claim benefits. I recall time and again illegal workers in all manner of ‘employment’. Needless to say neither employer or worker paid any taxes. Soft touch U.K. was the mantra back in the day. Can’t blame those that took advantage but it was another nail in the coffin for our membership. I googled
and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
I’m sure you consider it far better to live by your prejudice rather than read the actual Eu legislation and measures that could have been quite legitimately adopted by various U.K. governments. and found that Cameron tried to enforce a six month stay period for those without work and then deport. An EU migrant could arrive with just clothes on the back and that was enough, Freedom of Movement regulations.
It matters not we have left and employers will do what is best for their business. It may be to remain in the U.K. or to relocate. On that you do not get a say.
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