No More Coal !
Discussion
dvs_dave said:
Lot of variables involved but for the whole house looking at probably £10-£15 a square foot.
Right, so it would cost between 20 and 30K to install. What’s the design life? 15 or 20 years? Assuming it runs on pixie dust, then the capital cost would be greater than our fuel bill (if we had a fuel bill). As it happens we have a combination of Rayburn solid fuel and a big Clearview at the other end of the house. Got about 20 tonnes of wood in a stack, which is about 4 years supply. We burn some Anthracite when it is really cold - below -10 outside, the wood fired Rayburn needs the extra grunt that coal gives it. Hot water in between April and October is provided by solar PV dumping into the immersion.
Other than a few hundred quids worth of Anthracite every 4 years, fuel bills are zero. Wood is gathered from windfalls on local farms (I have 30 tonnes of Ash to pick up in the summer when the ground is solid) - this would would otherwise be burnt in a bonfire, or chipped using diesel, so the eco loons in government can FRO.
borcy said:
I thought it obviously, but that'll teach me. People can't do as they please, that various governments have removed many choices from people is nothing new and nothing to do with communists.
Clear enough?
What's clear is that you are intent on arguing a different point to the one I was making. Clear enough?
ATG said:
Here's tonight's responsible combustion shortly after ignition and while still coming up to temperature. In true bumpkin style, you'll see I'm drying what's left of one of the neighbours next to the fire.
Neighbour Jerky?We've got one in Wales to heat the downstairs as there's only a single old school type radiator, with nowhere really to put another.
Mind you I had to reroute the gas pipe as some bright spark thought it appropriate to route it along the floor and around the back of the wood burner. The pipe is now routed and hidden in the ceiling.
Edited by Byker28i on Tuesday 25th February 08:59
dvs_dave said:
But if as a flat Earther you’d prefer to spend a significant amount of time (and expense) toiling away with the upkeep and preparation of your own sustainable fuel source year in year out to be afford the luxury of huddling around whichever fire you decide to light, because it’s “free”, then good for you. No amount of persuasion will work.
You're thinking about it all wrong 
. Rather than paying 80 quid a month to go to the gym to spend energy doing nothing, I'll spend that energy toiling away and end up with fuel I can burn at the end of it. Getting outdoors and chopping your own wood is good for the soul as well as the body.And "huddling"? Methinks you've not experienced a modern stove.
Flumpo said:
poo at Paul's said:
Flumpo said:
If you are then in the very small minority that live in a village, but have no main lines gas, then you can easily use your bottled gas, oil or electric central heating. Again there is no real need to have a coal or wood heat source.
First off small minority without access to mains gas? You sure about that? There's HUGE areas of the UK without mains gas. Secondly, what about homes designed to use solid fuel, with chimneys (in our case two?). Such houses are designed to work with the flow of air in and out via the chimney. So there is a need to have coal or wood as a heat source for some homes, (and of course it will still be allowed), in order to keep their homes with good air quality and in good conditions, (no mould, damp etc).
And thirdly, you are answering a post specifically about air source heat pumps being suitable alternatives for rural homes. They're really not. I know, I have one. I also have an open fire and oil CH. If I had to lose one, I would chose the Heat Pump!
I don't know how much you know about air source heat pumps, whether you have one, sell them, or just trot out what you read on the net or are told by our Govt eco t
ts, but their are several limitations on their use. They are much better than they were, and are becoming cheaper, but still reliability of performance wise, theya re not in the same league yet as traditional gas boilers that most people enjoy. So whilst may be a way ahead for some that will need to upgrade from fosil fuels, they are not there yet. It will be interesting to see when they outlaw gas boilers for domestic new builds etc, whether they will continue to use gas for things like Govt buildings, schools, prisons, hospitals etc.I don't know if they will outlaw gas for them too, but I suspect they may not, as gas is far more reliable and flexible.
poo at Paul's said:
Flumpo said:
poo at Paul's said:
Flumpo said:
If you are then in the very small minority that live in a village, but have no main lines gas, then you can easily use your bottled gas, oil or electric central heating. Again there is no real need to have a coal or wood heat source.
First off small minority without access to mains gas? You sure about that? There's HUGE areas of the UK without mains gas. Secondly, what about homes designed to use solid fuel, with chimneys (in our case two?). Such houses are designed to work with the flow of air in and out via the chimney. So there is a need to have coal or wood as a heat source for some homes, (and of course it will still be allowed), in order to keep their homes with good air quality and in good conditions, (no mould, damp etc).
And thirdly, you are answering a post specifically about air source heat pumps being suitable alternatives for rural homes. They're really not. I know, I have one. I also have an open fire and oil CH. If I had to lose one, I would chose the Heat Pump!
I don't know how much you know about air source heat pumps, whether you have one, sell them, or just trot out what you read on the net or are told by our Govt eco t
ts, but their are several limitations on their use. They are much better than they were, and are becoming cheaper, but still reliability of performance wise, theya re not in the same league yet as traditional gas boilers that most people enjoy. So whilst may be a way ahead for some that will need to upgrade from fosil fuels, they are not there yet. It will be interesting to see when they outlaw gas boilers for domestic new builds etc, whether they will continue to use gas for things like Govt buildings, schools, prisons, hospitals etc.I don't know if they will outlaw gas for them too, but I suspect they may not, as gas is far more reliable and flexible.
ellroy said:
Why doesn’t somebody do something about the increased use of brown coal in Germany, China and Japan? A few log burners are hardly here, or there, in the grand scheme of things when that’s considered.
What has that got to do with inner city air pollution in the UK?No one is banning log burners.
rxe said:
dvs_dave said:
Lot of variables involved but for the whole house looking at probably £10-£15 a square foot.
Right, so it would cost between 20 and 30K to install. What’s the design life? 15 or 20 years? Assuming it runs on pixie dust, then the capital cost would be greater than our fuel bill (if we had a fuel bill). As it happens we have a combination of Rayburn solid fuel and a big Clearview at the other end of the house. Got about 20 tonnes of wood in a stack, which is about 4 years supply. We burn some Anthracite when it is really cold - below -10 outside, the wood fired Rayburn needs the extra grunt that coal gives it. Hot water in between April and October is provided by solar PV dumping into the immersion.
Other than a few hundred quids worth of Anthracite every 4 years, fuel bills are zero. Wood is gathered from windfalls on local farms (I have 30 tonnes of Ash to pick up in the summer when the ground is solid) - this would would otherwise be burnt in a bonfire, or chipped using diesel, so the eco loons in government can FRO.
Also in this case, it’s a comfort convenience that produces much less “real world” pollution (ie particulates) than your current preferred MO. I’m glad for you that not only do you seemingly not care about the pollution you’re creating, you also have the time to dedicate to such an endless task, just to live comfortably day-in-day-out.
Most people probably don’t concern themselves with pollution all that much either, but would probably choose the friendlier option if given the choice. Although what most people do care about is more time on their hands to do with what they want. Be that time with family, hobbies, earning more money, sitting on your arse watching Telly. It’s irrelevant, as it gives you the choice and potentially the resources needed to make those choices. If you don’t want those choices, or would always choose to chop wood anyway, have at it.
dvs_dave said:
It’s a modern convenience and comfort that means you don’t HAVE to toil away in your woods and tend to 30 tons of lumber and stoke fires all night. Do you have a dishwasher and washing machine? If so why? It’s much cheaper and uses less water to do dishes and laundry by hand.
Also in this case, it’s a comfort convenience that produces much less “real world” pollution (ie particulates) than your current preferred MO. I’m glad for you that not only do you seemingly not care about the pollution you’re creating, you also have the time to dedicate to such an endless task, just to live comfortably day-in-day-out.
Most people probably don’t concern themselves with pollution all that much either, but would probably choose the friendlier option if given the choice. Although what most people do care about is more time on their hands to do with what they want. Be that time with family, hobbies, earning more money, sitting on your arse watching Telly. It’s irrelevant, as it gives you the choice and potentially the resources needed to make those choices. If you don’t want those choices, or would always choose to chop wood anyway, have at it.
I view time in the woods as intrinsically satisfying. It’s also very good exercise - rather than getting in a boring little car and driving to a boring little gym, 2 hours on the log pile is a very good strength and cardio workout. I also have an excuse to have multiple 137 cc chainsaws which are also fun. It’s not a question of money, I’ve got enough to heat the house by burning 50 pound notes. I’d rather gouge my eyes out with a teaspoon than sit and watch telly.Also in this case, it’s a comfort convenience that produces much less “real world” pollution (ie particulates) than your current preferred MO. I’m glad for you that not only do you seemingly not care about the pollution you’re creating, you also have the time to dedicate to such an endless task, just to live comfortably day-in-day-out.
Most people probably don’t concern themselves with pollution all that much either, but would probably choose the friendlier option if given the choice. Although what most people do care about is more time on their hands to do with what they want. Be that time with family, hobbies, earning more money, sitting on your arse watching Telly. It’s irrelevant, as it gives you the choice and potentially the resources needed to make those choices. If you don’t want those choices, or would always choose to chop wood anyway, have at it.
Mort7 said:
dvs_dave said:
I’m glad for you that not only do you seemingly not care about the pollution you’re creating.....
But I don’t commute in my TVR, nor do I not have the time to modestly enjoy my other toys because I have to be out chopping wood.Edited by dvs_dave on Wednesday 26th February 04:25
rxe said:
I view time in the woods as intrinsically satisfying. It’s also very good exercise - rather than getting in a boring little car and driving to a boring little gym, 2 hours on the log pile is a very good strength and cardio workout. I also have an excuse to have multiple 137 cc chainsaws which are also fun. It’s not a question of money, I’ve got enough to heat the house by burning 50 pound notes. I’d rather gouge my eyes out with a teaspoon than sit and watch telly.
As you’ve seemingly made a hobby out of it, and it’s not become a chore, then good for you. However I’d suggest that you’re in a very small minority with that, as for the vast majority it’s a lifestyle that’s neither practical nor feasible.dvs_dave said:
s you’ve seemingly made a hobby out of it, and it’s not become a chore, then good for you. However I’d suggest that you’re in a very small minority with that, as for the vast majority it’s a lifestyle that’s neither practical nor feasible.
I’m probably at the extreme end of wood burning, but I know a lot of people with a small wood pile that is burnt each winter, in fact pretty much everyone round here (28 miles as the crow flies from Hyde Park Corner) has a sold fuel fire. Some of them get wood delivered, some pick up branches while out walking the dog and slowly slice it up at home. I looked round a house that had been built by a developer a few miles away (not intending to buy it, more that I am mates with the builder). On the market for 35 million .... and the centerpiece of the hall is a fk off open fire. The house is gopping, but I did like the fire. dvs_dave said:
Mort7 said:
dvs_dave said:
I’m glad for you that not only do you seemingly not care about the pollution you’re creating.....
But I don’t commute in my TVR, nor do I not have the time to modestly enjoy my other toys because I have to be out chopping wood.Edited by dvs_dave on Wednesday 26th February 04:25
poo at Paul's said:
You're wrong, plain and simple. There's about 15 percent of homes in the UK without mains gas. Even quite basic homes built as recently as 30 to 40 years ago had open fires. There's millions of homes on solid fuel heating, anything from Agas and Rayburns to Baxi back boilers. Even ignoring solid fuel as supplemental heating, there's a fair chunk of people who rely on it for main heating.
I don't know how much you know about air source heat pumps, whether you have one, sell them, or just trot out what you read on the net or are told by our Govt eco tts, but their are several limitations on their use. They are much better than they were, and are becoming cheaper, but still reliability of performance wise, theya re not in the same league yet as traditional gas boilers that most people enjoy. So whilst may be a way ahead for some that will need to upgrade from fosil fuels, they are not there yet.
It will be interesting to see when they outlaw gas boilers for domestic new builds etc, whether they will continue to use gas for things like Govt buildings, schools, prisons, hospitals etc.I don't know if they will outlaw gas for them too, but I suspect they may not, as gas is far more reliable and flexible.
You need to get real, in Scotland once you are away from the main urban centres you can forget gas. Rural homes usually work on oil, or to a lesser extent LPG and at a push coal, which is smelly, no error. Ground/Air/Water sourced heat pumps are useless except for highly insulated modern homes, because they only produce low grade heat, and without adequate insulation, it is dissipated too quickly. An older house needs what it was designed to have, local heat sources and plenty of ventilation. You will not take it to a consistently high (excessive?) temperature and hold it there. At night you hit your bed, enjoy the cool air, and use your wife as a local heat source.I don't know how much you know about air source heat pumps, whether you have one, sell them, or just trot out what you read on the net or are told by our Govt eco t
ts, but their are several limitations on their use. They are much better than they were, and are becoming cheaper, but still reliability of performance wise, theya re not in the same league yet as traditional gas boilers that most people enjoy. So whilst may be a way ahead for some that will need to upgrade from fosil fuels, they are not there yet. It will be interesting to see when they outlaw gas boilers for domestic new builds etc, whether they will continue to use gas for things like Govt buildings, schools, prisons, hospitals etc.I don't know if they will outlaw gas for them too, but I suspect they may not, as gas is far more reliable and flexible.
Air quality hasn’t improved as much as expected during the lockdown in England and Wales, in part due to residential wood burning. When will people en masse start to “get it” that wood burners are an unnecessary and significant source of pollution?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/0...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/0...
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 2nd April 17:57
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