Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?
Discussion
B'stard Child said:
Vanden Saab said:
B'stard Child said:
S600BSB said:
It's not Mark Thatcher, is it?
He's probably equally lost 
Vanden Saab said:
B'stard Child said:
Vanden Saab said:
B'stard Child said:
S600BSB said:
It's not Mark Thatcher, is it?
He's probably equally lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Thatcher
or a more reliable source for those left leaning fans
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1982/jan/1...
2xChevrons said:
Not a Starmer or Labour supporter but:
He agreed with Mrs. T saying that the first duty of government is the rule of law. I'm pretty sure that, of all the things Maggie said and did, that is not one of the controversial ones.
If anything it's holding up a mirror to the current government and how badly it is failing to live up to its history, its values and one of its former statesmen that virtually all its members would hold as some sort of role model.
True EnoughHe agreed with Mrs. T saying that the first duty of government is the rule of law. I'm pretty sure that, of all the things Maggie said and did, that is not one of the controversial ones.
If anything it's holding up a mirror to the current government and how badly it is failing to live up to its history, its values and one of its former statesmen that virtually all its members would hold as some sort of role model.
Vanden Saab said:
B'stard Child said:
Vanden Saab said:
B'stard Child said:
S600BSB said:
It's not Mark Thatcher, is it?
He's probably equally lost 86 said:
Yet another poll shows a 7 point drop in Labour lead. Get Johnson out of the way and Sunak on a roll.
Not a surprise as the only policy plans they seem sure about appear to be to tax pensions, savings, investments and any other money that any evil rich b
d might have. Weirdly that isn't popular outside the activist loons.
pquinn said:
Not a surprise as the only policy plans they seem sure about appear to be to tax pensions, savings, investments and any other money that any evil rich bd might have.
Weirdly that isn't popular outside the activist loons.
To be fair it might be an idea to look at CGT. Taxing at the same rate as income might be fair as long as people aren't being taxed on inflation.d might have. Weirdly that isn't popular outside the activist loons.
The old system of indexation of gains with a higher rate seems objectively fairer to me.
JagLover said:
pquinn said:
Not a surprise as the only policy plans they seem sure about appear to be to tax pensions, savings, investments and any other money that any evil rich bd might have.
Weirdly that isn't popular outside the activist loons.
To be fair it might be an idea to look at CGT. Taxing at the same rate as income might be fair as long as people aren't being taxed on inflation.d might have. Weirdly that isn't popular outside the activist loons.
The old system of indexation of gains with a higher rate seems objectively fairer to me.
2xChevrons said:
Not a Starmer or Labour supporter but:
He agreed with Mrs. T saying that the first duty of government is the rule of law. I'm pretty sure that, of all the things Maggie said and did, that is not one of the controversial ones.
If anything it's holding up a mirror to the current government and how badly it is failing to live up to its history, its values and one of its former statesmen that virtually all its members would hold as some sort of role model.
I'm not a Tory support but often thought the same. Seems to me that the politicians who claim to be the heirs of Thatcher wouldn't have got near her cabinet. The nearest she got for having a bit of soft spot for a naughty boy was Cecil Parkinson FFS. She had absolutely no time for lightweights, spivs, rogues and liars.He agreed with Mrs. T saying that the first duty of government is the rule of law. I'm pretty sure that, of all the things Maggie said and did, that is not one of the controversial ones.
If anything it's holding up a mirror to the current government and how badly it is failing to live up to its history, its values and one of its former statesmen that virtually all its members would hold as some sort of role model.
She got us a pretty good deal in Europe and could see the benefits for business. She did like a bit of anti European posturing but I doubt she'd have wanted her work squandered by Brexit the way it has been.
Referencing Thatcher is risky for politicians though because the nuances of the point he was making get obscured by both end of the spectrum
Hants PHer said:
In my experience of talking to Labour supporters these days, there is a grudging acceptance that Maggie Thatcher was a politician with principles and integrity, even if they disagree with some of her policies. No, the one they really loathe is Tony Blair.
That may be because Boris has set the bar so low in terms or morality, honesty, law breaking etc etc. Baroness Thatcher was a shining beacon in contrast to the Buffoon. Hants PHer said:
In my experience of talking to Labour supporters these days, there is a grudging acceptance that Maggie Thatcher was a politician with principles and integrity, even if they disagree with some of her policies. No, the one they really loathe is Tony Blair.
And I do like how Starmer is trying to emulate her by being a politician of principle. He clearly has principles, and if you don't like them, well he has some others 86 said:
Wes Streeting saying today Labour having a rethink on trans issues !! Starmer might find out what a woman is !! Well Keir, Thatcher was a woman !!
Changing horses to gain votes. This shower of Labour MP’s have no principles
Trans issues are just being appropriated to facilitate divide and conquer along with stirred culture wars , the Tories , Mail and Sun love stirring it a lot, when in reality does it affect most people .....noChanging horses to gain votes. This shower of Labour MP’s have no principles
What does affect people is:
Increasing inflation
Striking in the NHS
Waiting times @ GP
Piss poor roads
Brexit not being thought out or completed fully
Business and markets uncertainty
amongst other things
So I'd rather Labour focused on the above, unlike the Conservatives as they have had 10 years and its all got worse, with added sideshow pantomimes and lies & corruption
What Starmer thinks is a women bears no real interest to me, neither is what people want to be known as. My daughter uses the gents changing rooms with me @ swimming pool , so I'm not even fused about that.
I would like the country managed correctly, everyday affecting issues dealt with and not a different leader every few months/years which the Conservatives haven't been able to do .
Onwards and upwards to Labour next election
As I sit here and mull I’m becoming increasingly convinced that there isn’t going to be a Labour landslide, maybe even not a Labour majority in the house and we may find ourselves back in 2010 territory again
Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
The problems Starmer has are that
he must convince those old fashioned Labour voters and a good number of swing and normally Tory voters that he isn’t a clueless clown and is a man of substance and integrity
He must also convince them that his MP’s aren’t either and he also has to convince them they aren’t bonkers like many Labour local authorities. khan and others standing under a Labour flag is a big red flag to many
And he must convince them that his economic policies aren’t going to ruin them
That’s a tough trio to crack imo
It’ll boil down to the economy and I suspect far more than we realise, the border and how it is managed and policed ultimately and who is felt is the safest pair of hands in charge, safe boring Sunak or flip flop starmer?
So whilst I’d say at the moment a Labour Gov would be more likely I really don’t think it’s a shoe-in at all and the closer to an election we get, it’ll get closer, particularly if the economy does turn a corner and Labour actually have to come out and say what their policies are
I think it’s going to be a really interesting GE next year
Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
The problems Starmer has are that
he must convince those old fashioned Labour voters and a good number of swing and normally Tory voters that he isn’t a clueless clown and is a man of substance and integrity
He must also convince them that his MP’s aren’t either and he also has to convince them they aren’t bonkers like many Labour local authorities. khan and others standing under a Labour flag is a big red flag to many
And he must convince them that his economic policies aren’t going to ruin them
That’s a tough trio to crack imo
It’ll boil down to the economy and I suspect far more than we realise, the border and how it is managed and policed ultimately and who is felt is the safest pair of hands in charge, safe boring Sunak or flip flop starmer?
So whilst I’d say at the moment a Labour Gov would be more likely I really don’t think it’s a shoe-in at all and the closer to an election we get, it’ll get closer, particularly if the economy does turn a corner and Labour actually have to come out and say what their policies are
I think it’s going to be a really interesting GE next year
Earthdweller said:
As I sit here and mull I’m becoming increasingly convinced that there isn’t going to be a Labour landslide, maybe even not a Labour majority in the house and we may find ourselves back in 2010 territory again
Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
The problems Starmer has are that
he must convince those old fashioned Labour voters and a good number of swing and normally Tory voters that he isn’t a clueless clown and is a man of substance and integrity
He must also convince them that his MP’s aren’t either and he also has to convince them they aren’t bonkers like many Labour local authorities. khan and others standing under a Labour flag is a big red flag to many
And he must convince them that his economic policies aren’t going to ruin them
That’s a tough trio to crack imo
It’ll boil down to the economy and I suspect far more than we realise, the border and how it is managed and policed ultimately and who is felt is the safest pair of hands in charge, safe boring Sunak or flip flop starmer?
So whilst I’d say at the moment a Labour Gov would be more likely I really don’t think it’s a shoe-in at all and the closer to an election we get, it’ll get closer, particularly if the economy does turn a corner and Labour actually have to come out and say what their policies are
I think it’s going to be a really interesting GE next year
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh. Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
The problems Starmer has are that
he must convince those old fashioned Labour voters and a good number of swing and normally Tory voters that he isn’t a clueless clown and is a man of substance and integrity
He must also convince them that his MP’s aren’t either and he also has to convince them they aren’t bonkers like many Labour local authorities. khan and others standing under a Labour flag is a big red flag to many
And he must convince them that his economic policies aren’t going to ruin them
That’s a tough trio to crack imo
It’ll boil down to the economy and I suspect far more than we realise, the border and how it is managed and policed ultimately and who is felt is the safest pair of hands in charge, safe boring Sunak or flip flop starmer?
So whilst I’d say at the moment a Labour Gov would be more likely I really don’t think it’s a shoe-in at all and the closer to an election we get, it’ll get closer, particularly if the economy does turn a corner and Labour actually have to come out and say what their policies are
I think it’s going to be a really interesting GE next year
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
Earthdweller said:
As I sit here and mull I’m becoming increasingly convinced that there isn’t going to be a Labour landslide, maybe even not a Labour majority in the house and we may find ourselves back in 2010 territory again
Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
I could take issue with your analysis of the issue (especially the part I retained and bolded), but the basic point I agree with. Labour has done a very good job of alienating its core support who actually are far more conservative ( with a small C ) than many conservative voters
The Red wall seats are very traditional, and value family, country, hard work etc and have zero in common with the “luvvies of Islington” and their progressive policies
Labour's historically high polling at this point in time is incredibly shallow, and will evaporate like a puddle once the hot sun of scrutiny and electioneering is turned on them. The data behind these "Labour on 50+ per cent of the vote, Tories relegated to fourth-largest party" poll headlines is that they are generated by huge numbers of Conservative voters switching to 'Don't Know' or 'Won't Vote'. There is no real tangible support, political momentum or cultural drive behind Labour's apparent numerical success.
Just consider the attack lines that Starmer has left wide open (or even created himself through just being bad at the game of politics) for use against him in a full-throated election campaign, and which he has shown no sign of trying to close off or defuse ahead of time. In no particular order:
1) His blatant and self-admitted dishonesty re: leadership pledges v. policies
2) His position as a member of shadow cabinet for a person he campaigned to be PM but now thinks isn't fit to even hold the Labour whip.
3) His record of publicly backing and campaigning for a suite of policies he now freely casts aside and almost literally insults.
4) His flip-flopping on apparent positions of principle (such as Brexit - he vigorously stood as one of the main anchors of Labour's remain/second referendum clique in 2019, then announced that it was a 'settled issue' as soon as he became leader - or LGBT issues).
5) His uncertain legacy as DPP re: the Metropolitan Police, Jimmy Saville and other high-profile cases.
6) The facts that he's a knighted KC for a north London constituency - which in an ideal world wouldn't matter, but the Conservatives would be daft to not make hay of it in their play to the Purple Wall.
7) His continued protestations about having ridded Labour of its antisemitism problem while expelling far more Jewish people from the party and interfering in process to do so (in direct contravention of the EHRC recommendations) than his last four predecessors combined. See also: suspending or deselecting swathes of Labour's BAME, Jewish and youth council and parliamentary candidates for the crime of 'being lefties'.
8) Having a personal Act of Parliament to give him an inflation-busting pension. Never mind the practicalities or the tradition of it - SKS was supposedly elected because he was better at optics and presentation than the beardy allotment-owning Jam Man.
9) Admission (explicit and tacit) that the Conservatives are basically correct with their approaches to lots of policies (benefits, immigration, public services, utilities, education) but they're just not doing it right. Again, hardly astute political gamesmanship.
10) Abstention on key votes on hot-button issues that Labour will probably try and claim as priorities in a GE campaign. Easy for opponents to refute. Fence-sitting will always eventually leave you with a backside full of splinters.
I could go on and on. For instance, SKS's 'tough on crime' speech yesterday was all part of his prostrating before the tabloids and the imagined voter base of grumpy 50-something lower-middle class men in the East Midlands. Tough on crime, tough on teenagers, tough on smells, tough on the causes of smells. It's grovellingly pathetic, like a scrawny bookish kid at school tagging along behind the bully, laughing at their jokes and agreeing earnestly with everything they say. And it won't work and never does. The tabloids (and that voter base) will never actually think that Labour are tough on crime, tough on anti-social behaviour, tough on immigrants, tough on benefit scrounger or any of those topics. And there's instant proof - the S*n ran a story on SKS yesterday that was basically "despite his tough-talking speech, don't forget that Sir Keir voted to STOP the deportation of 'foreign crooks' [I think that was the phrase they used]".
It just alienates what left-wing/progressive voters are left in Labour's tent, while offering right-wing/traditionalist/under-representated voters only a pale, hollow, insincere imitation of the Conservative platform. Why would they go for that, rather than something more full-blooded like Reform, UKIP or Reclaim?
All these problems (and loads more which I haven't even touched, like the quality of Labour's front bench) which originate in the complete lack of substance, sincerity and depth in the Labour 'project' (if it even deserves being called that) will be exposed when campaigning starts in earnest and Labour's lead will rapidly shrink. And they need a strong overall lead to even break even in Parliament now, let alone secure a workable majority.
Even if I'm wrong (which I usually am in my political predictions...) then Labour will have a historically vast parliamentary majority delivered by the biggest collective "meh, they can't do worse than the last lot" in British political history. They will have no real idea what to do with all that power and no one will particular care. Not the thing great administrations are made of.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff