Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?
Discussion
CoolHands said:
“neither do any of the rest of them” maybe true. But labour would be worse, without a shadow of a doubt.
I hear this a lot - I live in an ultra-blue leafy part of SE England where it would be unthinkable for our Tory MP to be ousted. I will not be voting for her or any other Tory for the foreseeable. I won't vote labour as I don't agree with their policies, & the others are all pretty irrelevant.Would labour be handling this mess any worse than the current lot ruling us? I'm not so sure any more.
Biker 1 said:
I hear this a lot - I live in an ultra-blue leafy part of SE England where it would be unthinkable for our Tory MP to be ousted. I will not be voting for her or any other Tory for the foreseeable. I won't vote labour as I don't agree with their policies, & the others are all pretty irrelevant.
Would labour be handling this mess any worse than the current lot ruling us? I'm not so sure any more.
The “any more” bit - how?Would labour be handling this mess any worse than the current lot ruling us? I'm not so sure any more.
Ukraine? Would you pull out or go in harder
Cost of living from what I’ve heard they are simply saying don’t do that rather than a costed out option (for instance they refuse to reverse the NI rise - as you’d expect - yet smash it all the time)
Strikes - they would deal with it how? Last night in QT the Welsh MP said wales have dealt with it already. She responded well you gave a 3.x% increase which the union accepted (Tory’s have offered 4%) and the unions are asking for 7% so how?it’s of umms
Asked how about the teachers? They want 12% - we would sit down and talk it out , but you don’t have any more money will you be raising Wales income tax to fund it? Oh no…. So how then? Lots of umms
Welshbeef said:
Biker 1 said:
I hear this a lot - I live in an ultra-blue leafy part of SE England where it would be unthinkable for our Tory MP to be ousted. I will not be voting for her or any other Tory for the foreseeable. I won't vote labour as I don't agree with their policies, & the others are all pretty irrelevant.
Would labour be handling this mess any worse than the current lot ruling us? I'm not so sure any more.
The “any more” bit - how?Would labour be handling this mess any worse than the current lot ruling us? I'm not so sure any more.
Ukraine? Would you pull out or go in harder
Cost of living from what I’ve heard they are simply saying don’t do that rather than a costed out option (for instance they refuse to reverse the NI rise - as you’d expect - yet smash it all the time)
Strikes - they would deal with it how? Last night in QT the Welsh MP said wales have dealt with it already. She responded well you gave a 3.x% increase which the union accepted (Tory’s have offered 4%) and the unions are asking for 7% so how?it’s of umms
Asked how about the teachers? They want 12% - we would sit down and talk it out , but you don’t have any more money will you be raising Wales income tax to fund it? Oh no…. So how then? Lots of umms
What would you want an MP to do about those striking for a pay increase commensurate with inflation? Go into confrontation mode or negotiate?
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Another by-election won then.
I suspect it's more a rejection of Johnson than it is an endorsement of Starmer but I expect he'll take it.
I still don't know what policy or principle Labour or Starmer stand for, just that he'd do something different to whatever Boris says about anything.I suspect it's more a rejection of Johnson than it is an endorsement of Starmer but I expect he'll take it.
So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
pquinn said:
I still don't know what policy or principle Labour or Starmer stand for, just that he'd do something different to whatever Boris says about anything.
So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
About sums it up.So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
How has it come to this that seemingly most of our politicians are utterly inept?
Biker 1 said:
pquinn said:
I still don't know what policy or principle Labour or Starmer stand for, just that he'd do something different to whatever Boris says about anything.
So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
About sums it up.So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
How has it come to this that seemingly most of our politicians are utterly inept?
So the pool of ‘talent’ isn’t great.
Of course there are some clever, honourable people in there. But they rarely seem to get to the top.
pquinn said:
I still don't know what policy or principle Labour or Starmer stand for, just that he'd do something different to whatever Boris says about anything.
So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
Agreed and they'd have to spell that out come a General Election.So you can't really vote *for* him, just against the alternative.
Won't stop him getting elected but I've no idea what we'd get if people did. Really not convinced it'd be an improvement, or even noticeably different.
98elise said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Another by-election won then.
I suspect it's more a rejection of Johnson than it is an endorsement of Starmer but I expect he'll take it.
Corbyn: I'm going to make Labour unelectable for a generation.I suspect it's more a rejection of Johnson than it is an endorsement of Starmer but I expect he'll take it.
Johnson: Hold my beer...
He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to.......
anonymoususer said:
lornemalvo said:
It occurs to me that it has nothing to do with Starmer. The obvious question to ask is "who do the Labour Party truly represent now?" There is no party that represents me now. I'm instinctively working class, but have done OK for myself. Comfortable, not rich. I will never vote Tory, I despise them all. . The Labour party has turned its back on the working classes and is too woke, left wing but with absolutely no radical ideas or policies of its own. The lib dems - not since they betrayed every student in the country and besides, what have they got, who the hell are they?
I never liked Jeremy Corbyn, but his manifesto was the best I've seen in a long time. I'm all for nationalisation of things we must have like water, gas and electricity etc.
All I want is a party that treats its budget like we have to at home, and pay for necessities before other stuff. e.g. scrap HS2 and give the North a decent crack of the whip with decent rail services. Other parts of the country as well no doubt. London used up its budget for many years with Crossrail in my opinion. I also want a party that gives motorists a fair deal instead of hammering us into the ground with net zero nonsense and crippling taxes. Scrap energy surcharges for the same reason. Where's that money going to? We do need to reduce the use of fossil fuels but do it at a measured pace, as we can afford to do it, preferably using the carrot not the stick. We always get the stick. I want a party that can actually manage things, to sort out a country that seems to be collapsing. We can't get a passport, catch a train or a plane, nobody in public service picks up a phone any more, we can't get a doctors appointment, a dentists' appointment and for many, a dentist at all, food and fuel through the roof. The police are next to useless. Our local force haven't solved a single burglary in three years. You can shoplift at will and if the value is less than £200, you'll never be arrested. That's going to push up prices for those of us who pay for things. Above all I need a party with integrity and common sense. I think I'm asking too much
Have to add my +1 to the othersI never liked Jeremy Corbyn, but his manifesto was the best I've seen in a long time. I'm all for nationalisation of things we must have like water, gas and electricity etc.
All I want is a party that treats its budget like we have to at home, and pay for necessities before other stuff. e.g. scrap HS2 and give the North a decent crack of the whip with decent rail services. Other parts of the country as well no doubt. London used up its budget for many years with Crossrail in my opinion. I also want a party that gives motorists a fair deal instead of hammering us into the ground with net zero nonsense and crippling taxes. Scrap energy surcharges for the same reason. Where's that money going to? We do need to reduce the use of fossil fuels but do it at a measured pace, as we can afford to do it, preferably using the carrot not the stick. We always get the stick. I want a party that can actually manage things, to sort out a country that seems to be collapsing. We can't get a passport, catch a train or a plane, nobody in public service picks up a phone any more, we can't get a doctors appointment, a dentists' appointment and for many, a dentist at all, food and fuel through the roof. The police are next to useless. Our local force haven't solved a single burglary in three years. You can shoplift at will and if the value is less than £200, you'll never be arrested. That's going to push up prices for those of us who pay for things. Above all I need a party with integrity and common sense. I think I'm asking too much
The points you make are very accurate
Opinions may vary on the rest of it, including Corbyn's last manifesto, frankly there was a reason why Labour got a drubbing at the ballot box then.
Part of that reason was that people thought they were voting for something they didn't get. I'm going to ignore the Brexity element of that vote driver, because after the May shambles and a completely emasculated parliament something needed sorting. But in terms of what they were voting for going forward people thought they were going for a government that would be different from the usual suspects. In short a government which would be slightly left leaning in terms of economics and slightly right leaning in terms of identity and culture. It's easier for the right to move slightly left on economics than the left to move right.
Even though, being generous, there are a metric tonne of reasons why things haven't gone as expected for reasons out of the control of our, or indeed, any government, we've ended up with nothing like what people voted for, and people blame the politicians. Plus they, politicians, haven't exactly helped themselves in many ways. For example one example is pushing on with the net zero malarkey apace, whilst completely oblivious to the public, manufacturers, experts in the various fields saying can we individually or collectively afford this, can we achieve this as certain technological issues are not available or proven. Even in the EU noises are increasingly being made about the mandated demise of vehicle combustion engines.
Equally the identity and culture wars have just got worse and even more fragmented. One comment overheard from died in the wool lefty is that they're going to vote Tory as "at least they know what a woman is."
Essentially folks are sick of the lot of them and fir various reasons which is why I've been fortunate to have a decent Indepependant candidate for my vote for a few years now. No longer as they're not going to stand again, so in the wilderness. Can't bring myself to vote Lib Dem which have done in dim and distant past. Think the last time voted Tory was based on family guidance, just got old enough to vote, and knew square root bugger all.
Sorry for the rambling response. But yeah we need integrity and common sense.
FiF said:
anonymoususer said:
lornemalvo said:
It occurs to me that it has nothing to do with Starmer. The obvious question to ask is "who do the Labour Party truly represent now?" There is no party that represents me now. I'm instinctively working class, but have done OK for myself. Comfortable, not rich. I will never vote Tory, I despise them all. . The Labour party has turned its back on the working classes and is too woke, left wing but with absolutely no radical ideas or policies of its own. The lib dems - not since they betrayed every student in the country and besides, what have they got, who the hell are they?
I never liked Jeremy Corbyn, but his manifesto was the best I've seen in a long time. I'm all for nationalisation of things we must have like water, gas and electricity etc.
All I want is a party that treats its budget like we have to at home, and pay for necessities before other stuff. e.g. scrap HS2 and give the North a decent crack of the whip with decent rail services. Other parts of the country as well no doubt. London used up its budget for many years with Crossrail in my opinion. I also want a party that gives motorists a fair deal instead of hammering us into the ground with net zero nonsense and crippling taxes. Scrap energy surcharges for the same reason. Where's that money going to? We do need to reduce the use of fossil fuels but do it at a measured pace, as we can afford to do it, preferably using the carrot not the stick. We always get the stick. I want a party that can actually manage things, to sort out a country that seems to be collapsing. We can't get a passport, catch a train or a plane, nobody in public service picks up a phone any more, we can't get a doctors appointment, a dentists' appointment and for many, a dentist at all, food and fuel through the roof. The police are next to useless. Our local force haven't solved a single burglary in three years. You can shoplift at will and if the value is less than £200, you'll never be arrested. That's going to push up prices for those of us who pay for things. Above all I need a party with integrity and common sense. I think I'm asking too much
Have to add my +1 to the othersI never liked Jeremy Corbyn, but his manifesto was the best I've seen in a long time. I'm all for nationalisation of things we must have like water, gas and electricity etc.
All I want is a party that treats its budget like we have to at home, and pay for necessities before other stuff. e.g. scrap HS2 and give the North a decent crack of the whip with decent rail services. Other parts of the country as well no doubt. London used up its budget for many years with Crossrail in my opinion. I also want a party that gives motorists a fair deal instead of hammering us into the ground with net zero nonsense and crippling taxes. Scrap energy surcharges for the same reason. Where's that money going to? We do need to reduce the use of fossil fuels but do it at a measured pace, as we can afford to do it, preferably using the carrot not the stick. We always get the stick. I want a party that can actually manage things, to sort out a country that seems to be collapsing. We can't get a passport, catch a train or a plane, nobody in public service picks up a phone any more, we can't get a doctors appointment, a dentists' appointment and for many, a dentist at all, food and fuel through the roof. The police are next to useless. Our local force haven't solved a single burglary in three years. You can shoplift at will and if the value is less than £200, you'll never be arrested. That's going to push up prices for those of us who pay for things. Above all I need a party with integrity and common sense. I think I'm asking too much
The points you make are very accurate
Opinions may vary on the rest of it, including Corbyn's last manifesto, frankly there was a reason why Labour got a drubbing at the ballot box then.
Part of that reason was that people thought they were voting for something they didn't get. I'm going to ignore the Brexity element of that vote driver, because after the May shambles and a completely emasculated parliament something needed sorting. But in terms of what they were voting for going forward people thought they were going for a government that would be different from the usual suspects. In short a government which would be slightly left leaning in terms of economics and slightly right leaning in terms of identity and culture. It's easier for the right to move slightly left on economics than the left to move right.
Even though, being generous, there are a metric tonne of reasons why things haven't gone as expected for reasons out of the control of our, or indeed, any government, we've ended up with nothing like what people voted for, and people blame the politicians. Plus they, politicians, haven't exactly helped themselves in many ways. For example one example is pushing on with the net zero malarkey apace, whilst completely oblivious to the public, manufacturers, experts in the various fields saying can we individually or collectively afford this, can we achieve this as certain technological issues are not available or proven. Even in the EU noises are increasingly being made about the mandated demise of vehicle combustion engines.
Equally the identity and culture wars have just got worse and even more fragmented. One comment overheard from died in the wool lefty is that they're going to vote Tory as "at least they know what a woman is."
Essentially folks are sick of the lot of them and fir various reasons which is why I've been fortunate to have a decent Indepependant candidate for my vote for a few years now. No longer as they're not going to stand again, so in the wilderness. Can't bring myself to vote Lib Dem which have done in dim and distant past. Think the last time voted Tory was based on family guidance, just got old enough to vote, and knew square root bugger all.
Sorry for the rambling response. But yeah we need integrity and common sense.
https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1540278562...
said:
Lab got 8,000 fewer votes in Wakefield than it got in its 2019 defeat. Lab is not surging. There is no enthusiasm for Starmer's party. That's actually good news for the Tories. Their key problem is that a big swathe of Tory-leaning voters are currently on strike.
Down 8,000 given the current situation (both with Boris lying etc, and the country in general)? That's a terrible result, albeit at least they won biggbn said:
Sadly, regardless how you vote, a politician will always get in....
True, Cons look to be screwed, and not helping themselves with the imitation of rats fighting in a sack.Boris has to realise he can't please everybody, ends up pleasing nobody.
Starmer ditto.
Davey is just jumping on a passing opportunity, won't last, never has in the past.
biggbn said:
Sadly, regardless how you vote, a politician will always get in....
Indeed. So for someone like me, there doesn't seem to be anyone that I can vote for.Conservative? No way, all the while the current cabinet including Boris is in charge. This might change, of course.
Labour? Sheesh, they're even worse than the Tories. Can't see SKS, Crayons etc. going anywhere.
LibDems? With their aim to rejoin the EU and policies including Universal Basic Income and proportional representation, not a chance.
Greens? Utter fools hell bent on the UK committing eco-suicide. I'll pass, thanks.
That said, if someone says "Oh, I didn't vote", or "Yeah, I spoiled my ballot paper" I tend to think badly of them.
johnboy1975 said:
https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1540278562...
But it does mean the electorate are bunching around viable alternatives and not just dispersing to whatever flavour the BNP/UKIP/Brexit party are this week. said:
Lab got 8,000 fewer votes in Wakefield than it got in its 2019 defeat. Lab is not surging. There is no enthusiasm for Starmer's party. That's actually good news for the Tories. Their key problem is that a big swathe of Tory-leaning voters are currently on strike.
Down 8,000 given the current situation (both with Boris lying etc, and the country in general)? That's a terrible result, albeit at least they won I do agree with others that Starmer whilst I believe to be a decent enough politician does continue to be anonymous nationally and without any real support within the Labour left-of-centre.
Evanivitch said:
johnboy1975 said:
https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1540278562...
But it does mean the electorate are bunching around viable alternatives and not just dispersing to whatever flavour the BNP/UKIP/Brexit party are this week. said:
Lab got 8,000 fewer votes in Wakefield than it got in its 2019 defeat. Lab is not surging. There is no enthusiasm for Starmer's party. That's actually good news for the Tories. Their key problem is that a big swathe of Tory-leaning voters are currently on strike.
Down 8,000 given the current situation (both with Boris lying etc, and the country in general)? That's a terrible result, albeit at least they won They were viable in Honiton weren't they?
That seat is as "true blue" as they come but the last anyone heard of the Conservative candidate there she'd locked herself in the dance studio of the leisure centre.
The Lib Dems won't win a General Election but they could win enough to make things interesting whether that's taking Conservative seats or having enough to be kingmaker like in 2010.
That seat is as "true blue" as they come but the last anyone heard of the Conservative candidate there she'd locked herself in the dance studio of the leisure centre.
The Lib Dems won't win a General Election but they could win enough to make things interesting whether that's taking Conservative seats or having enough to be kingmaker like in 2010.
turbobloke said:
Evanivitch said:
johnboy1975 said:
https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1540278562...
But it does mean the electorate are bunching around viable alternatives and not just dispersing to whatever flavour the BNP/UKIP/Brexit party are this week. said:
Lab got 8,000 fewer votes in Wakefield than it got in its 2019 defeat. Lab is not surging. There is no enthusiasm for Starmer's party. That's actually good news for the Tories. Their key problem is that a big swathe of Tory-leaning voters are currently on strike.
Down 8,000 given the current situation (both with Boris lying etc, and the country in general)? That's a terrible result, albeit at least they won turbobloke said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: They were viable in Honiton weren't they?.
Not the point - a most obtuse reply.They were the viable protest vote, it was the SW factor.
Viable nationally, dream on.
"The Lib Dems won't win a General Election but they could win enough to make things interesting whether that's taking Conservative seats or having enough to be kingmaker like in 2010.".
No idea what the SW factor is.
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