Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?

[jakesmith]

markyb_lcy said:

jakesmith said:

Why have prominent Jewish figures condemned it then? Let me guess, an axe to grind for some reason?

I think it’s up to the group in question to decide whether the comment is offensive to them, not some anonymous randoms on a car forum

No other ethnic group in the U.K. would be told that the racism they saw and heard and were offended by, wasn’t racism. Could you imagine such a thing? Shameful.

I will let those people speak for themselves. They have their opinion, I have mine. Others have theirs. My own opinion doesn’t invalidate or conflict with anyone else’s.

Only Len knows the truth, but what I’ve said is how I see it, as things stand.

They hardly stand to gain anything if the accusations they make are as spurious as you and another character are making out. They were hardly rabble rousing before the antisemites found their voice when Corbyn started up.

[markyb_lcy]

jakesmith said:

They hardly stand to gain anything if the accusations they make are as spurious as you and another character are making out.

I’m afraid I’m not in a position to ascertain that, as I don’t know any of these characters well enough.

[jakesmith]

markyb_lcy said:

jakesmith said:

They hardly stand to gain anything if the accusations they make are as spurious as you and another character are making out.

I’m afraid I’m not in a position to ascertain that, as I don’t know any of these characters well enough.

Absolute cop out of an answer. It was you who supported the notion that the accusation is spurious. How can you possibly know that without an idea of what the motive for that is.

[768]

markyb_lcy said:

Spot on. I agree with you both. Context is everything. If this was said about a Jewish person, those with the axe to grind here might have a point.

I don't think for a second McCluskey is ignorant of Mandelson's Jewish heritage.

[markyb_lcy]

jakesmith said:

markyb_lcy said:

jakesmith said:

They hardly stand to gain anything if the accusations they make are as spurious as you and another character are making out.

I’m afraid I’m not in a position to ascertain that, as I don’t know any of these characters well enough.

Absolute cop out of an answer. It was you who supported the notion that the accusation is spurious. How can you possibly know that without an idea of what the motive for that is.

You can call it a cop out if you want but I call it going as far as I feel comfortable with.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not 100% sure, I’m open minded, but on the evidence available to me, I don’t believe Len is being anti-semitic. I also assert that I don’t believe you think it’s anti-Semitic either, but you see an opportunity to criticise a far-left figure. You can say I’m wrong, I respect that, and your opinion and assertions are as valid and equal as mine.

My real problem with mischaracterised racism and bigotry is that it can devalue, through noise, the real racial and other injustices in our society. I mean the racism etc that actually affects people’s lives, not a generic comment that can be interpreted in a number of different ways, as this is.

This is a comment which ‘could’ be racist, but also ‘could not’ be racist. My feeling is that it isn’t. I’ve been wrong before, and I’ll be wrong again, but that’s my take.

[anonymous-user]

jakesmith said:

Why have prominent Jewish figures condemned it then? Let me guess, an axe to grind for some reason?

I think it’s up to the group in question to decide whether the comment is offensive to them, not some anonymous randoms on a car forum

No other ethnic group in the U.K. would be told that the racism they saw and heard and were offended by, wasn’t racism. Could you imagine such a thing? Shameful.

Now you’re trying to make out you’re part of a distinct ethnic group so you can play the racism as well as anti semitism card.

Your religion is just your thoughts and opinions about a divine being. They’re views, a faith, not an ethnicity.

Regardless of that, any prejudice based on religion or race should be stopped.

I respect your religious views but not this -ism stuff you’re doing, especially when it’s motivated by politics.

[jakesmith]

I’m looking for an opportunity to criticise a far left figure!? Really? I’ve got a bit more going on in my life than that for now I think. There’s hardly a lack of opportunity. I hardly post on NPE any more.

By my count, 5 posters on this discussion think it was anti Semitic, you’re not sure, and one thinks it wasn’t.
4 prominent Jewish figures think it was anti Semitic.

[jakesmith]

El stovey said:

jakesmith said:

Why have prominent Jewish figures condemned it then? Let me guess, an axe to grind for some reason?

I think it’s up to the group in question to decide whether the comment is offensive to them, not some anonymous randoms on a car forum

No other ethnic group in the U.K. would be told that the racism they saw and heard and were offended by, wasn’t racism. Could you imagine such a thing? Shameful.

Now you’re trying to make out you’re part of a distinct ethnic group so you can play the racism as well as anti semitism card.

Your religion is just your thoughts and opinions about a divine being. They’re views, a faith, not an ethnicity.

Regardless of that, any prejudice based on religion or race should be stopped.

I respect your religious views but not this -ism stuff you’re doing, especially when it’s motivated by politics.

Jews are an ethnic group. Do you think Hitler would have let any off from the gas chamber if they renounced their faith. You have made yourself look ignorant today.

You certainly have zero grasp of the thoughts going through my head I can assure you, although I think I’m a bit closer to understanding yours.

[markyb_lcy]

jakesmith said:

I’m looking for an opportunity to criticise a far left figure!? Really? I’ve got a bit more going on in my life than that for now I think. There’s hardly a lack of opportunity. I hardly post on NPE any more.

By my count, 5 posters on this discussion think it was anti Semitic, you’re not sure, and one thinks it wasn’t.
4 prominent Jewish figures think it was anti Semitic.

I don’t base my opinion on the levels of the opinions of others. Sometimes I find myself and my opinion is in a minority. I’m fine with that.

It is what it is. Take it, or leave it.

I enjoy some of your posts, Jake, and I think you’re a good soul, but I do think you indulge in opportunism to criticise the far left. This is not the only example (don’t ask me to drag up examples from the past).

Fwiw, I’m no fan of the far left, either, but criticism should be levelled imo only when it’s due. This particular instance is imo not one of them. Fair play if you disagree and fair play if you refute my assertion. As it happens I do actually agree that “Jewish” is both a religion and an ethnic group.

Beyond that, all I can offer is to agree to disagree.

[jakesmith]

markyb_lcy said:

I don’t base my opinion on the levels of the opinions of others. Sometimes I find myself and my opinion is in a minority. I’m fine with that.

It is what it is. Take it, or leave it.

I enjoy some of your posts, Jake, and I think you’re a good soul, but I do think you indulge in opportunism to criticise the far left. This is not the only example (don’t ask me to drag up examples from the past).

Fwiw, I’m no fan of the far left, either, but criticism should be levelled imo only when it’s due. This particular instance is imo not one of them. Fair play if you disagree and fair play if you refute my assertion.

Beyond that, all I can offer is to agree to disagree.

I too enjoy your articulately positioned alternative viewpoints I can’t fully disagree with the nature of what you said if not the full substance. However at my age I am still presently capable of confidently knowing my own thoughts, and I do express them truthfully. Why wouldn’t I, it’s an anonymous forum.

I do not see this situation as a failure if Starmer. I support him and would even consider voting Labour over those present imbeciles in power, if he can get rid of the loonies.

Let’s respectfully disagree on McClusky’s motivation. I think he is a racist making dog whistle remarks as a show of bravado in the face of Starmer using ‘Len’s money’ to pay out the Panorama whistleblowers and sacking ‘Becky’, a way of saying to the hard left faithful ‘don’t worry, we’re still here’.

Maybe when he’s done exactly the same thing another 5 or 10 times we can revisit it under the precedent of ‘no smoke without fire’

[markyb_lcy]

jakesmith said:

markyb_lcy said:

I don’t base my opinion on the levels of the opinions of others. Sometimes I find myself and my opinion is in a minority. I’m fine with that.

It is what it is. Take it, or leave it.

I enjoy some of your posts, Jake, and I think you’re a good soul, but I do think you indulge in opportunism to criticise the far left. This is not the only example (don’t ask me to drag up examples from the past).

Fwiw, I’m no fan of the far left, either, but criticism should be levelled imo only when it’s due. This particular instance is imo not one of them. Fair play if you disagree and fair play if you refute my assertion.

Beyond that, all I can offer is to agree to disagree.

I too enjoy your articulately positioned alternative viewpoints I can’t fully disagree with the nature of what you said if not the full substance. However at my age I am still presently capable of confidently knowing my own thoughts, and I do express them truthfully. Why wouldn’t I, it’s an anonymous forum.

I do not see this situation as a failure if Starmer. I support him and would even consider voting Labour over those present imbeciles in power, if he can get rid of the loonies.

Let’s respectfully disagree on McClusky’s motivation. I think he is a racist making dog whistle remarks as a show of bravado in the face of Starmer using ‘Len’s money’ to pay out the Panorama whistleblowers and sacking ‘Becky’, a way of saying to the hard left faithful ‘don’t worry, we’re still here’.

Maybe when he’s done exactly the same thing another 5 or 10 times we can revisit it under the precedent of ‘no smoke without fire’

Deal.

Always a pleasure, Jake enjoy the rest of your evening.

[jakesmith]

markyb_lcy said:

Deal.

Always a pleasure, Jake enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Murph7355]

jakesmith said:

Why have prominent Jewish figures condemned it then? Let me guess, an axe to grind for some reason?

I think it’s up to the group in question to decide whether the comment is offensive to them, not some anonymous randoms on a car forum

No other ethnic group in the U.K. would be told that the racism they saw and heard and were offended by, wasn’t racism. Could you imagine such a thing? Shameful.

Ask them.

Perhaps sensitivities are especially high at present with all the anti-semitism "news" where the Labour party are concerned? Maybe they just don't like Labour or the unions. Maybe there are a hundred other reasons.

FWIW I mentioned "isms" very deliberately. I think the hair trigger applies across the board.

Shameful? If that's your view, that's your view. Many things are shameful in today's society. I'm not sure this makes the top 10. (Or top 1000).

[jakesmith]

Murph7355 said:

Ask them.

Sure. I’d imagine the answer would be along the lines of they don’t like racism.

[768]

El stovey said:

Now you’re trying to make out you’re part of a distinct ethnic group...

I'm not Jewish and I appreciate you've already pointedly set the bar of your own ignorance in this thread, but denying Jewish ethnicity in the context of this discussion is toying with the offensive.

[biggbn]

markyb_lcy said:

El stovey said:

Murph7355 said:

I took the comment to be more a slur on "Mandelson the man" rather than "Mandelson the man of partial Jewish origin". A man who seems to have done well out of "New Labour" which one supposes Mr McCluskey probably doesn't like.

McCluskey would probably have been wiser to use the word "money", but then I guess that could also have been taken the same way. Is it not allowed for someone to be denigrated after they've made a pot of cash out of the working people? (Assuming that is one's belief).

I'm not saying I care either way btw. McCluskey's politics aren't mine in the slightest...I just think we're too quick to pull the "ism" trigger in this country these days, and that that is a very slippery slope. No matter who it is doing it.

I'm not sure what is expected of Starmer right now. I suspect he still needs the unions to support him. And I don't believe he can personally do anything about McCluskey.

Exactly, I agree with everything you say. Especially about the -ism trigger.

He said

“I stopped listening to anything Peter Mandelson says years ago.

“I would suggest Peter goes into a room and counts his gold and not worry about the Labour Party. Leave that to those of us who are interested in ordinary working people.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co....

“Counting your gold” here is about his wealth and it’s being used to suggest he’s disconnected from what McCluskey sees as “ordinary working people”

It’s an old labour new labour thing and a conflict within the party between those that want to stay true to the labour trade Union roots and those that want to be more about aspiration like Blair Mandleson and Starmer.

McCluskey hates Madleson because he was central to the new labour rebranding and what came after.

It’s about new vs old labour not religion, not that Mandleson is Jewish anyway.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co....

Spot on. I agree with you both. Context is everything. If this was said about a Jewish person, those with the axe to grind here might have a point. Otherwise, I simply see opportunism to smear a major figure of the left.

I’m no fan of McCluskey myself, very far from it, but I can’t stand seeing comments being misrepresented like this.

I also abhor and condemn (actual) anti-semitism, for the record.

Many on here defend clown Johnson for his comments citing context in his defence. It seems context is perhaps a one way street? An unfortunate, and thoughtless comment by McCluskey i would suggest, but I agree with the above posters. He has also apologised has he not?

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

markyb_lcy said:

I don’t base my opinion on the levels of the opinions of others. Sometimes I find myself and my opinion is in a minority. I’m fine with that.

It is what it is. Take it, or leave it.

I enjoy some of your posts, Jake, and I think you’re a good soul, but I do think you indulge in opportunism to criticise the far left. This is not the only example (don’t ask me to drag up examples from the past).

Fwiw, I’m no fan of the far left, either, but criticism should be levelled imo only when it’s due. This particular instance is imo not one of them. Fair play if you disagree and fair play if you refute my assertion.

Beyond that, all I can offer is to agree to disagree.

I too enjoy your articulately positioned alternative viewpoints I can’t fully disagree with the nature of what you said if not the full substance. However at my age I am still presently capable of confidently knowing my own thoughts, and I do express them truthfully. Why wouldn’t I, it’s an anonymous forum.

I do not see this situation as a failure if Starmer. I support him and would even consider voting Labour over those present imbeciles in power, if he can get rid of the loonies.

Let’s respectfully disagree on McClusky’s motivation. I think he is a racist making dog whistle remarks as a show of bravado in the face of Starmer using ‘Len’s money’ to pay out the Panorama whistleblowers and sacking ‘Becky’, a way of saying to the hard left faithful ‘don’t worry, we’re still here’.

Maybe when he’s done exactly the same thing another 5 or 10 times we can revisit it under the precedent of ‘no smoke without fire’

Fair play to both of you for this civil exchange!

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

Fair play to both of you for this civil exchange!

I’m mellowing with age... & I learned from the best in the business, biggbn!

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

biggbn said:

Fair play to both of you for this civil exchange!

I’m mellowing with age... & I learned from the best in the business, biggbn!

[swisstoni]

I’ve not been keeping on totally on top of it but I don’t think we’ve heard much from Sir Kier since he called for a national lockdown?

The tide seems to be turning on the view of the effectiveness of lockdowns and his call seems to have inadvertently been the highwater mark.

I’d put money on him quietly dropping the idea.