Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?
Discussion
Blue62 said:
turbobloke said:
The irony of Corbyn being succeeded by another establishment champagne socialist Labour leader is lost on some. My post didn't judge him, it described him and indicated a reasonable view of his fate. Namely, he won't have much of a chance to do anything to be judged on - except spectate.
Champagne Socialist is a rather tired old cliche, but I’m not sure that Starmer conforms to it at all. Your previous post did judge him, it’s obvious that describing him as a millionaire was intended as a slight, I wonder how you would regard anybody describing Boris as such? Id hazard a guess that you would argue it’s irrelevant. In any event, time will tell if you are right in your assertion, time that I hope we all will have.
Aside from having been a s
t head of the CPS, Starmer fails and falls at the first and most basic hurdle - he's not a democrat unless it suits him.
He spent three years as shadow Brexit secretary doing everything he possibly could to undermine, delay and ultimately overturn the Brexit referendum result.
If, instead, he had spent even half that time working constructively to create a national position and indeed supporting a national position I have no doubt that the whole process would and could have been immeasurably less tortuous and much less divisive than it was. He talks about healing and communities coming together and yet he was instrumental in creating and perpetuating the most divisive st storm we have ever seen.
Whatever your view on Brexit , there is no doubt that the process log-jammed the entire country & government for at least 18 months at the expense of countless other issues that should and could have been dealt with in parliament.
IMO he's a snidey, self serving, self righteous and I hope he gets mired in the most almighty ststorm of infighting within the labour party. Perhaps then he might understand what its like to not have your democratic mandate respected.
fk him and the horse he rode in on.
t head of the CPS, Starmer fails and falls at the first and most basic hurdle - he's not a democrat unless it suits him. He spent three years as shadow Brexit secretary doing everything he possibly could to undermine, delay and ultimately overturn the Brexit referendum result.
If, instead, he had spent even half that time working constructively to create a national position and indeed supporting a national position I have no doubt that the whole process would and could have been immeasurably less tortuous and much less divisive than it was. He talks about healing and communities coming together and yet he was instrumental in creating and perpetuating the most divisive s
t storm we have ever seen.Whatever your view on Brexit , there is no doubt that the process log-jammed the entire country & government for at least 18 months at the expense of countless other issues that should and could have been dealt with in parliament.
IMO he's a snidey, self serving, self righteous
and I hope he gets mired in the most almighty ststorm of infighting within the labour party. Perhaps then he might understand what its like to not have your democratic mandate respected.f
k him and the horse he rode in on.Wombat3 said:
Aside from having been a st head of the CPS, Starmer fails and falls at the first and most basic hurdle - he's not a democrat unless it suits him.
He spent three years as shadow Brexit secretary doing everything he possibly could to undermine, delay and ultimately overturn the Brexit referendum result.
If, instead, he had spent even half that time working constructively to create a national position and indeed supporting a national position I have no doubt that the whole process would and could have been immeasurably less tortuous and much less divisive than it was. He talks about healing and communities coming together and yet he was instrumental in creating and perpetuating the most divisive st storm we have ever seen.
Whatever your view on Brexit , there is no doubt that the process log-jammed the entire country & government for at least 18 months at the expense of countless other issues that should and could have been dealt with in parliament.
IMO he's a snidey, self serving, self righteous and I hope he gets mired in the most almighty ststorm of infighting within the labour party. Perhaps then he might understand what its like to not have your democratic mandate respected.
fk him and the horse he rode in on.
I watched that film last night as well t head of the CPS, Starmer fails and falls at the first and most basic hurdle - he's not a democrat unless it suits him. He spent three years as shadow Brexit secretary doing everything he possibly could to undermine, delay and ultimately overturn the Brexit referendum result.
If, instead, he had spent even half that time working constructively to create a national position and indeed supporting a national position I have no doubt that the whole process would and could have been immeasurably less tortuous and much less divisive than it was. He talks about healing and communities coming together and yet he was instrumental in creating and perpetuating the most divisive s
t storm we have ever seen.Whatever your view on Brexit , there is no doubt that the process log-jammed the entire country & government for at least 18 months at the expense of countless other issues that should and could have been dealt with in parliament.
IMO he's a snidey, self serving, self righteous
and I hope he gets mired in the most almighty ststorm of infighting within the labour party. Perhaps then he might understand what its like to not have your democratic mandate respected.f
k him and the horse he rode in on.
IanH755 said:
For the OP - the first and most important thing is GET RID OF MOMENTUM!
Allowing a lunatic fringe political movement to control the entire opposition party is what has taken Labour from a position of potential Government to a situation where their own supporters would rather vote for the "enemy" than vote for their own party.
The only problem is that Momentum, to quote a favourite film, are "dug in like an Alabama tick" so getting rid of the people, the policies and the infrastructure which allowed a fringe group to seize power will take the next 5 years at least and even then I'm not sure Sir Keir will be able to do it because if there's one thing Communists/Socialist love more than being righteous p***ks, it's clinging onto power until they're forcibly removed (at gun point in Communist/Socialist paradises usually).
This in spades Allowing a lunatic fringe political movement to control the entire opposition party is what has taken Labour from a position of potential Government to a situation where their own supporters would rather vote for the "enemy" than vote for their own party.
The only problem is that Momentum, to quote a favourite film, are "dug in like an Alabama tick" so getting rid of the people, the policies and the infrastructure which allowed a fringe group to seize power will take the next 5 years at least and even then I'm not sure Sir Keir will be able to do it because if there's one thing Communists/Socialist love more than being righteous p***ks, it's clinging onto power until they're forcibly removed (at gun point in Communist/Socialist paradises usually).
Teddy Lop said:
biggbn said:
Perhaps ask the millions USA inc. has recently made unemployed if they feel as strongly about being looked after by their free market country? I think our country is a fantastic example of small c conservatism and a workable welfare state, but capitalism must be shackled lest it destroys this.
if the free market is their problem which socialist country do you think the millions would prefer to be right now?what do you mean by capitalism must be "shackled"? Its an odd choice of word.
ash73 said:
I think Keir has the potential to be the best Labour leader since John Smith. He's got a good reserved statesman quality about him, and generally speaks sense.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
And what, exactly, do you think could and should have been done differently/better given the resources available and the disinformation that came out of China?
Which western governments have done markedly better , how and why?
He is Blair’s place-man desperately trying to appear not to be.
His voice also grates me, certainly not statesman like reminds me of Gordon Brittas from the Brittas Empire if any of you remember that terrible show from the 90s.
Anyhow never voted for Blair and don’t see myself voting for this chap.
His voice also grates me, certainly not statesman like reminds me of Gordon Brittas from the Brittas Empire if any of you remember that terrible show from the 90s.
Anyhow never voted for Blair and don’t see myself voting for this chap.
ash73 said:
I think Keir has the potential to be the best Labour leader since John Smith. He's got a good reserved statesman quality about him, and generally speaks sense.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
Keir spent his first day writing point scoring sound bites to bIf he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
h from the sidelines. If he has any sensible alternate plans let's hear them. I won't hold my breath.He had the chance to contribute positively, with Boris open to a bipartisan approach. Kier just acted like any other politician and opposes anything that wasn't done by their side.
98elise said:
ash73 said:
I think Keir has the potential to be the best Labour leader since John Smith. He's got a good reserved statesman quality about him, and generally speaks sense.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
Keir spent his first day writing point scoring sound bites to bIf he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
h from the sidelines. If he has any sensible alternate plans let's hear them. I won't hold my breath.He had the chance to contribute positively, with Boris open to a bipartisan approach. Kier just acted like any other politician and opposes anything that wasn't done by their side.
oh well at least we won't have to wait as long for the idiots who voted them it to see how s
t they are.. 98elise said:
ash73 said:
I think Keir has the potential to be the best Labour leader since John Smith. He's got a good reserved statesman quality about him, and generally speaks sense.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
Keir spent his first day writing point scoring sound bites to bIf he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
h from the sidelines. If he has any sensible alternate plans let's hear them. I won't hold my breath.He had the chance to contribute positively, with Boris open to a bipartisan approach. Kier just acted like any other politician and opposes anything that wasn't done by their side.
He could of thrown a curved ball in & said how willing he was to co-operate and left it at that.
Andy 308GTB said:
98elise said:
ash73 said:
I think Keir has the potential to be the best Labour leader since John Smith. He's got a good reserved statesman quality about him, and generally speaks sense.
If he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
Keir spent his first day writing point scoring sound bites to bIf he sidelines Momentum and pitches centre-left policies I could see him being PM.
Boris' handling of the crisis has been poor; if we're going to have a socialist government we might as well do it properly.
h from the sidelines. If he has any sensible alternate plans let's hear them. I won't hold my breath.He had the chance to contribute positively, with Boris open to a bipartisan approach. Kier just acted like any other politician and opposes anything that wasn't done by their side.
He could of thrown a curved ball in & said how willing he was to co-operate and left it at that.
It augurs badly for his future. If he can’t see the obvious how’s he going to deal with the ingrained, hidden nastiness within his party?
Very disappointing.
zygalski said:
Oh I don't know, I can imagine Starmer efficiently dissecting a bumbling BoJo at PMQ's.
Let's face it, for most PH'ers whoever won the Labour leadership would be Satan incarnate so it's hardly a balanced appraisal now is it?
This. In spades.Let's face it, for most PH'ers whoever won the Labour leadership would be Satan incarnate so it's hardly a balanced appraisal now is it?
However, and fortunately for the right-wing PH majority, I don't think Labour will be electable under Starmer. They need root and branch reform and a return to the centre ground.
Not sure if that's possible with Momentum so entrenched but I hope it is, not least so we get an effective opposition again rather than a Socialist Worker rabble.
hackjo said:
I think the odds of Labour winning the election in five years are low. It would need the Government to make a very serious cockup for starters and as we saw with Blair and Iraq, that doesn't always provide a window for the opposition to seize power.
I think Starmer needs to do the following things which are all about rebuilding Labour's credibility:
- Support the Government when it's doing the right thing, don't oppose for the sake of opposition.
- Where the Government is failing, ask intelligent questions and make intelligent proposals in the spirit of being a check and balance. Seek to influence Government behaviour and work with them to ensure they do the right thing. Be factual, reasonable and accurate. Be challenging but again, don't oppose for the sake of opposing.
- Slowly develop credible Labour policies that address the failings of the Government and build on the things they've done well. Accept that if the Government is broadly successful, it may be tricky to find those one or two issues that really differentiate Labour.
- Speak openly and honestly. Don't be bullied by the press.
- Stamp out Momentum. Get away from the extreme left wing bias and aim to a more social conservative position, being to the left of the BoJo Tory Government but still credible. Effectively, take the party back where it was under Blair but with the gravitas and credibility New Labour lacked.
- Aim to re-engage with real people and get away from the London woke bubble.
- Build a shadow cabinet of A players.
If Starmer can tackle these things, he will build a credible and valuable opposition party. Even then, it may take up to 10 years of practising these principles for Labour to get another shot at power. But they must do them otherwise their only hope of power is a serious failure on the part of the Government. I think they can and should do better.
Surely one of the most divisive issues for Labour was Brexit? In that London Labour were remain, working class Labour were leave. Starmer fought bitterly to overturn Brexit so I don't see that working class Labour will look at him and think "he's the man for us" after the last 3 years. I would add to your list that he needs to categorically state that he was wrong to try and buck democracy, apologise and state his cabinet's policy will be to support and help in delivering Brexit. I dare say this won't happen and he will continue to try to throw spanners in the Brexit works at every opportunity thus continuing to alienate working class Labour.I think Starmer needs to do the following things which are all about rebuilding Labour's credibility:
- Support the Government when it's doing the right thing, don't oppose for the sake of opposition.
- Where the Government is failing, ask intelligent questions and make intelligent proposals in the spirit of being a check and balance. Seek to influence Government behaviour and work with them to ensure they do the right thing. Be factual, reasonable and accurate. Be challenging but again, don't oppose for the sake of opposing.
- Slowly develop credible Labour policies that address the failings of the Government and build on the things they've done well. Accept that if the Government is broadly successful, it may be tricky to find those one or two issues that really differentiate Labour.
- Speak openly and honestly. Don't be bullied by the press.
- Stamp out Momentum. Get away from the extreme left wing bias and aim to a more social conservative position, being to the left of the BoJo Tory Government but still credible. Effectively, take the party back where it was under Blair but with the gravitas and credibility New Labour lacked.
- Aim to re-engage with real people and get away from the London woke bubble.
- Build a shadow cabinet of A players.
If Starmer can tackle these things, he will build a credible and valuable opposition party. Even then, it may take up to 10 years of practising these principles for Labour to get another shot at power. But they must do them otherwise their only hope of power is a serious failure on the part of the Government. I think they can and should do better.
Edited by hackjo on Saturday 4th April 11:53
I don’t follow this well enough to comment on how likely Starmer is to turn Labour round but if his first move is to take shots at the government while a crisis is still ramping up, I’m unimpressed.
Demanding a precise Corona exit policy right now shows either the same level of stupidity or the same intention to disrupt the process as when the remainers were asking for all Brexit negotiating positions to be detailed in public .
Demanding a precise Corona exit policy right now shows either the same level of stupidity or the same intention to disrupt the process as when the remainers were asking for all Brexit negotiating positions to be detailed in public
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