Discussion
Last year I emigrated to NZ. I spent three months by myself waiting for family and furniture to arrive so was living in the house we had rented with almost no belongings: just the clothes I had brought with me plus a bed I bought on arrival (plus the absolute minimum of kitchen equipment). Overall I was fine. The only material things I missed were my motorbike and a sofa. I actually quite enjoyed not being burdened by possessions. Made me reassess things. If my wife would let me I would prefer to jettison most of our belongings and stop buying pointless stuff we don’t need. As others have pointed out above, that is unfortunately not how the capitalist economy functions. We are reliant on people endlessly buying stuff they don’t need to keep the wheels of the economy turning.
CX53 said:
This is exactly the reason I'm beginning to think working long hours in a stressful job is a false economy.
I'm by no means at PH Director level but earn around 40k on a bad year and 50ish on a good one... and have a long commute, 42hr standard week plus OT
Best mate earns 24k with a short commute and does 37 hours per week in public sector.
Both of our OH's earn similar.
He has a similar house, car isn't much worse although he only has 1 not 2 (I could easily lose the extra car without any tears), goes on more holidays, has managed to save for a wedding and has a bucket load more spare time. He is literally no worse off really apart from eating out less and generally being more careful with money, but of course he has the time to do so.
I would happily do more things myself instead of paying someone else if I had the time.
This crisis really has made me rethink what's important.
Exactly what prompted my musings at the top of this thread. We are going through what is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to experience a period of enforced reflection and, also, the practical experience of what it means to momentarily part de couple from the wage slave model.I'm by no means at PH Director level but earn around 40k on a bad year and 50ish on a good one... and have a long commute, 42hr standard week plus OT
Best mate earns 24k with a short commute and does 37 hours per week in public sector.
Both of our OH's earn similar.
He has a similar house, car isn't much worse although he only has 1 not 2 (I could easily lose the extra car without any tears), goes on more holidays, has managed to save for a wedding and has a bucket load more spare time. He is literally no worse off really apart from eating out less and generally being more careful with money, but of course he has the time to do so.
I would happily do more things myself instead of paying someone else if I had the time.
This crisis really has made me rethink what's important.
I doubt I will change my own ways not least because I'm getting towards the fag end of my career, however there's an opportunity for others to re appraise what is important and this has only been presented as a direct result of this unfortunate set of circumstances.
It would be interesting though if folk simply decided not to 'play' any more!
Esceptico said:
Last year I emigrated to NZ. I spent three months by myself waiting for family and furniture to arrive so was living in the house we had rented with almost no belongings: just the clothes I had brought with me plus a bed I bought on arrival (plus the absolute minimum of kitchen equipment). Overall I was fine. The only material things I missed were my motorbike and a sofa. I actually quite enjoyed not being burdened by possessions. Made me reassess things. If my wife would let me I would prefer to jettison most of our belongings and stop buying pointless stuff we don’t need. As others have pointed out above, that is unfortunately not how the capitalist economy functions. We are reliant on people endlessly buying stuff they don’t need to keep the wheels of the economy turning.
Therein lies the conundrum. Many of us who have retired with a comfortable income and lifestyle, have relied on the consumer society to drive the economy for the last 50 years to achieve the sort of retirement that most of the world can only dream about. That doesn't sit easily with the viewpoint that we don't need more stuff (and repair rather than replace) so a future generation must do without the same opportunities.Simply put, how do we replace consumerism without losing the benefits that it brings not only to the 'lifestyle' of consumers, but also many in developing countries where most of the manufacturing takes place?
When the current restrictions were coming into place the BBC interviwed a range of self employed who were worried about their future - I recall a music teacher & plasterer.
In addition there were some who had jobs which I didn't really know existed e.g a London lady who was a `social influencer`, another who was a `nail technician`. Next was a 20 something who spent the day taking photos of shoes at home & a finally specialist massage therapist with several red settee things.
I did wonder if when this is all over the latter group would ever re-open a consumer demand for what I saw as notajob. Maybe their clients will have got on perfectly well without those services & won't return?
Perhaps I'm the wrong generation to get what's going on in our economy these days.
In addition there were some who had jobs which I didn't really know existed e.g a London lady who was a `social influencer`, another who was a `nail technician`. Next was a 20 something who spent the day taking photos of shoes at home & a finally specialist massage therapist with several red settee things.
I did wonder if when this is all over the latter group would ever re-open a consumer demand for what I saw as notajob. Maybe their clients will have got on perfectly well without those services & won't return?
Perhaps I'm the wrong generation to get what's going on in our economy these days.
julianm said:
When the current restrictions were coming into place the BBC interviwed a range of self employed who were worried about their future - I recall a music teacher & plasterer.
In addition there were some who had jobs which I didn't really know existed e.g a London lady who was a `social influencer`, another who was a `nail technician`. Next was a 20 something who spent the day taking photos of shoes at home & a finally specialist massage therapist with several red settee things.
I did wonder if when this is all over the latter group would ever re-open a consumer demand for what I saw as notajob. Maybe their clients will have got on perfectly well without those services & won't return?
Perhaps I'm the wrong generation to get what's going on in our economy these days.
It's nothing new, I've just been reading Martin Amis' description of LA written nearly 40 years agoIn addition there were some who had jobs which I didn't really know existed e.g a London lady who was a `social influencer`, another who was a `nail technician`. Next was a 20 something who spent the day taking photos of shoes at home & a finally specialist massage therapist with several red settee things.
I did wonder if when this is all over the latter group would ever re-open a consumer demand for what I saw as notajob. Maybe their clients will have got on perfectly well without those services & won't return?
Perhaps I'm the wrong generation to get what's going on in our economy these days.
"This restaurant serves no drink, this one serves no meat, this one serves no heterosexuals. You can get your chimp shampooed, you can get your dick tattooed, twenty-four hour, but can you get lunch?"
ant1973 said:
What you really want is everyone else to keep doing what they are doing but only change your own behaviour. That way you get all of the benefits but none of the downside.
I've been doing this for a long time. We live quite well, but are not "flash" and don't try to impress anybody with possessions (who would be impressed anyway? We are just Middle England people) My wife and I both consider it before we spend money and have avoided falling into the "monthlies" trap.
I like repairing and improving things and have often take people's cast-offs and made good use of them. Other people's constant need to upgrade suits me.
As somebody else said, for me life is about being fit and healthy and having good experiences, often in the great outdoors. I like to be self-reliant, to learn new skills and I like helping people out.
I discovered the benefits of daily exercise and movement a long time ago. In the current situation, living close to the mountains would have been better, but I make do with what I have locally.
Working from home in my current job isn't exactly rivetting, but I have a job. Longer term, I may look to change direction.
I think that the bottom will fall out of the 'middle' of everything. People will go one way or the other, depending on their finances.
The desire will be to treat yourself and to really have a good time with those that you love. If you're in good financial health once this is over you'll not want mediocre, you'll want the best.
Now if you are skint after this you'll probably cut back on anything that's not good value or anything that's too contrived. You'll probably absolutely hammer the great outdoors, because it's free, and anyone who can offer something cheap and enjoyable in that respect may be onto a winner. Glamping will die a death. Those that can afford it will want better, those that can't will see through it and go in a tent, because glamorous camping is bloody b
ks. This goes for retail, leisure, hospitality, the lot. DIY will go crazy, home interior product purchases will be more considered, more towards longevity and quality.
Our taste for German cars will fade and the PCP and HP market will tighten up, which will force a change in our motoring choices.
Those that aren't in the rudest financial health will make do and keep a car longer or will gravitate towards the Fiats, Citroëns and Vauxhalls.
I don't think remote working will take over as we'll all be thinking of the extra energy bills, printer ink and mobile phone bills we've incurred while we've been working from home and we're starting to realise video conference calls in the home feel a bit intrusive.
We'll have realised that trying to show a colleague something you're developing over email or video call just isn't a substitute for sitting together and looking at the same screen or page. We'll have realised that brainstorming in person is so much more fluid than via conference. We'll have realised that getting 30 seconds of Geoff's time is so much more effective when you can see he's just over the other side of the office but you can see he's busy so you'll seize your chance later when it looks more convenient, instead of emailing him not knowing if he's available at all or calling him and interrupting him at a time when it really isn't most productive.
Or maybe that's all a load of toss and we'll be back to business as usual.
The desire will be to treat yourself and to really have a good time with those that you love. If you're in good financial health once this is over you'll not want mediocre, you'll want the best.
Now if you are skint after this you'll probably cut back on anything that's not good value or anything that's too contrived. You'll probably absolutely hammer the great outdoors, because it's free, and anyone who can offer something cheap and enjoyable in that respect may be onto a winner. Glamping will die a death. Those that can afford it will want better, those that can't will see through it and go in a tent, because glamorous camping is bloody b
ks. This goes for retail, leisure, hospitality, the lot. DIY will go crazy, home interior product purchases will be more considered, more towards longevity and quality.Our taste for German cars will fade and the PCP and HP market will tighten up, which will force a change in our motoring choices.
Those that aren't in the rudest financial health will make do and keep a car longer or will gravitate towards the Fiats, Citroëns and Vauxhalls.
I don't think remote working will take over as we'll all be thinking of the extra energy bills, printer ink and mobile phone bills we've incurred while we've been working from home and we're starting to realise video conference calls in the home feel a bit intrusive.
We'll have realised that trying to show a colleague something you're developing over email or video call just isn't a substitute for sitting together and looking at the same screen or page. We'll have realised that brainstorming in person is so much more fluid than via conference. We'll have realised that getting 30 seconds of Geoff's time is so much more effective when you can see he's just over the other side of the office but you can see he's busy so you'll seize your chance later when it looks more convenient, instead of emailing him not knowing if he's available at all or calling him and interrupting him at a time when it really isn't most productive.
Or maybe that's all a load of toss and we'll be back to business as usual.
Some interesting thoughts on this thread. My experience of people that I talk to (family, friends, neighbours really) is that they all say "can't wait to get back to normal". I suppose it depends how long the crisis lasts, but my prediction is that nothing much will change. Rather than say "life was different during the crisis, and I'm going to be different from now on", my hunch is that folk will say "thank God that's over. Now we can go shopping for stuff, we've missed that. Is The Range open yet?"
As the late, great Neil Peart wrote: "the more that things change, the more they stay the same."
As the late, great Neil Peart wrote: "the more that things change, the more they stay the same."
Esceptico said:
Last year I emigrated to NZ. I spent three months by myself waiting for family and furniture to arrive so was living in the house we had rented with almost no belongings: just the clothes I had brought with me plus a bed I bought on arrival (plus the absolute minimum of kitchen equipment). Overall I was fine. The only material things I missed were my motorbike and a sofa. I actually quite enjoyed not being burdened by possessions. Made me reassess things. If my wife would let me I would prefer to jettison most of our belongings and stop buying pointless stuff we don’t need. As others have pointed out above, that is unfortunately not how the capitalist economy functions. We are reliant on people endlessly buying stuff they don’t need to keep the wheels of the economy turning.
This more or less mirrors my feelings. We moved from a large house in France to a small terraced 2.5 bedroom house in the UK last August and now have far too much "stuff", I had to buy a 14x10 shed and have filled that up to the doors with boxes, tools and equipment, the second bedroom is full of boxes of stuff with nowhere for it to go and so is the lounge diner and we still have half our stuff stored in France. As part of our "leave plans" we'd arranged a trip to NZ and arrived in November and realistically the only longish term accommodation we could get was an unfurnished house on North Shore which we did a 5 month rental on, we managed to get hold of furniture that others were chucking out rented a fridge and telly from Mr Rental and bought some basic plates, cutlery, pans etc. It made us realise that we just don't need all that stuff in the UK anymore and can quite happily live on the basics, we just don't need any more than that. I wish that we could just ditch everything in the UK and start again with the basics but there's sentimental stuff to be considered and do I really want to get rid of all my tools etc., so it's a dilemma but something to be sorted out when we finally manage to get out of here (was supposed to march 31st then May and now looks like it will be June sometime but that's a whole other story).
It's less about how much stuff people have and more about the need for many to constantly upgrade/buy new ones.
If stuff is made use of then there is little wrong having it.
In many cases, there is no advantage to be had from upgrading, other than continuing the cycle of change. Cars are a good example in many cases, and for most people, especially now that almost all cars are more than good/fast/reliable/comfortable enough for the purpose of being driven on the roads.
If stuff is made use of then there is little wrong having it.
In many cases, there is no advantage to be had from upgrading, other than continuing the cycle of change. Cars are a good example in many cases, and for most people, especially now that almost all cars are more than good/fast/reliable/comfortable enough for the purpose of being driven on the roads.
MC Bodge said:
Brave Fart said:
As the late, great Neil Peart wrote: "the more that things change, the more they stay the same."
As the French said before him, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Glad to see some Rush fans on this thread.
I have found music more important than ever just recently, and I still miss The Professor.
Brave Fart said:
MC Bodge said:
Brave Fart said:
As the late, great Neil Peart wrote: "the more that things change, the more they stay the same."
As the French said before him, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
I have a feeling that this situation will, at long last, expose those with 'bulls#it' jobs..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
ETA the link doesn't seem to work but just Google it instead. Its fascinating. Everyone will know someone with a bulls#it job...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
ETA the link doesn't seem to work but just Google it instead. Its fascinating. Everyone will know someone with a bulls#it job...
Edited by OddCat on Wednesday 8th April 10:25
Nice little summary of the pointless jobs here: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/may/04/i-ha...
Great thread. I think people will largely carry on the same, but a more extreme version of before. Those who finance their lifestyle with debt will justify it as the world can end at any point, so why not max it out more. Those prudent will say their point was proven, and probably cut back even more.
A hell of a lot of people really want to go on holiday once this is over too, just to get as far away from the house as possible.
I'm of the prudent variety, I backpacked for 4 years, and started with 23kg and ended up with 15kg, including about 4kg of camera stuff in that. My wife didn't use debt to buy things, but didn't like throwing anything away once she had it. We recently moved from a 2 bed house to a 4 bed, and it looked like we moved from an 8 bed there was so much stuff, our 2 new bedrooms were just storage rooms (I refused for my new garage to become a storage room!) 95% of it was my wife's and kids stuff.
They've all cut back a lot now anyway. I've requested all gifts for the kids to be the same brand for example (Tomy train tracks, Hot Wheels cars, Lego bricks, not any of the competitors), as it allows easier and quicker clean up, and it all goes together rather than trying to mesh Brio to Tomy, Hot Wheels to supermarket own brands, Lego to mega blocks, etc. We've had a massive spring clean before the virus came along, and just went over everything again during lockdown. We now can actually enjoy the extra space in the house which is quite stress relieving too.
A hell of a lot of people really want to go on holiday once this is over too, just to get as far away from the house as possible.
I'm of the prudent variety, I backpacked for 4 years, and started with 23kg and ended up with 15kg, including about 4kg of camera stuff in that. My wife didn't use debt to buy things, but didn't like throwing anything away once she had it. We recently moved from a 2 bed house to a 4 bed, and it looked like we moved from an 8 bed there was so much stuff, our 2 new bedrooms were just storage rooms (I refused for my new garage to become a storage room!) 95% of it was my wife's and kids stuff.
They've all cut back a lot now anyway. I've requested all gifts for the kids to be the same brand for example (Tomy train tracks, Hot Wheels cars, Lego bricks, not any of the competitors), as it allows easier and quicker clean up, and it all goes together rather than trying to mesh Brio to Tomy, Hot Wheels to supermarket own brands, Lego to mega blocks, etc. We've had a massive spring clean before the virus came along, and just went over everything again during lockdown. We now can actually enjoy the extra space in the house which is quite stress relieving too.
The crisis is a long way from over. Tariffs against stuff that's "cheap from China" are a very real possibility. That on and of itself will put a brake on consumerism.
Travel is another industry where I can see significant change moving forward, not least if we are to control future pandemics, but also because I think the industry will be permanently and massively changed.
15 odd years ago we bought a relatively (for the Midlands) expensive house, primarily because of the location: as in it was expense because of the location and the location was the primary factor in the purchase. We have always appreciid it, but right now, being able to walk or cycle off our own property and into 16,000 acres of forests, hills and heathland seems the best decision we ever made. Right now, all the car parks and entrances are shut off, no one is supposed to be driving here to exercise, but as we are here already, we and our neighbours are very fortunate. Although as Mrs Digga says, it was not luck but planning.
Travel is another industry where I can see significant change moving forward, not least if we are to control future pandemics, but also because I think the industry will be permanently and massively changed.
15 odd years ago we bought a relatively (for the Midlands) expensive house, primarily because of the location: as in it was expense because of the location and the location was the primary factor in the purchase. We have always appreciid it, but right now, being able to walk or cycle off our own property and into 16,000 acres of forests, hills and heathland seems the best decision we ever made. Right now, all the car parks and entrances are shut off, no one is supposed to be driving here to exercise, but as we are here already, we and our neighbours are very fortunate. Although as Mrs Digga says, it was not luck but planning.
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