Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

[Zirconia]

RSTurboPaul said:

Zirconia said:

Really need to see what and who was behind this. The data it collects, gov is allowed to keep for 20 years. There are £1 deals with firms that can go on to make an absolute fortune lurking in the background here and the lax data privacy is a big concern.

I recall reading the £1 bit previously but not the bit in bold - may I ask where it was mentioned? Was it in the contracts they released??

https://contact-tracing.phe.gov.uk/help/privacy-notice


Edit. It seem convoluted, someone asked about the privacy of the external firms and they were told it comes under NHS, I think. Part of DIPA which was not let out until later and house committees didn't get it either.

Edited by Zirconia on Friday 19th June 13:08

[Zirconia]

Apple has not been told about the UK government working on the App with Apple, they are not aware of what Hancock said yesterday nor understand his distance claims..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

I expect there is more to this.

[bitchstewie]

Zirconia said:

Apple has not been told about the UK government working on the App with Apple, they are not aware of what Hancock said yesterday nor understand his distance claims..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

I expect there is more to this.

I'd literally come to link to that article.

That's... odd.

[RSTurboPaul]

Zirconia said:

RSTurboPaul said:

Zirconia said:

Really need to see what and who was behind this. The data it collects, gov is allowed to keep for 20 years. There are £1 deals with firms that can go on to make an absolute fortune lurking in the background here and the lax data privacy is a big concern.

I recall reading the £1 bit previously but not the bit in bold - may I ask where it was mentioned? Was it in the contracts they released??

https://contact-tracing.phe.gov.uk/help/privacy-notice


Edit. It seem convoluted, someone asked about the privacy of the external firms and they were told it comes under NHS, I think. Part of DIPA which was not let out until later and house committees didn't get it either.

Edited by Zirconia on Friday 19th June 13:08

Thanks for the reply!

[grumbledoak]

The bill looks to be £11M
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/test-and-trace-...

It does sound like it just didn't work on Apple devices.

So well done Apple. I've been a cheap Chinese Android fan, but I'll get an Apple SE with my next pay cheque.

[purplepolarbear]

From what I've seen the app doesn't appear to be particularly technically difficult to write. I'd imagine any competent app developer could write something (with the server components) in a few days. (Obviously there might be testing on different models of device, things like security would need to be tested by suitably vetted people and it would need to connect to reliable production servers which may need a little more work).

Why hasn't an independent but trusted body (say a university or teaching hospital) written one? If some people use it, then it would have some benefit and if the word spread about it, many people would use it. After a while the government could encourage everyone to use this app (and people might trust a university or hospital more than a government project).

[grumbledoak]

purplepolarbear said:

From what I've seen the app doesn't appear to be particularly technically difficult to write. I'd imagine any competent app developer could write something (with the server components) in a few days. (Obviously there might be testing on different models of device, things like security would need to be tested by suitably vetted people and it would need to connect to reliable production servers which may need a little more work).

Why hasn't an independent but trusted body (say a university or teaching hospital) written one? If some people use it, then it would have some benefit and if the word spread about it, many people would use it. After a while the government could encourage everyone to use this app (and people might trust a university or hospital more than a government project).

"a few days"? You sound like one of my ex bosses! A couple of months tested on two platforms is pretty good going.

Apparently the standard of the app code is way above that of a Uni or teaching hospital - it's here I think:
https://github.com/nhsx/COVID-19-app-iOS-BETA

The problem is fundamentally one of privacy. The centralized database would be open to hacking, and the wholesale sale of the data has already been agreed:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/w...

It is also fundamentally a Bluetooth-enabled ID card in a country where we are "not required" to carry ID.

[Zirconia]

purplepolarbear said:

From what I've seen the app doesn't appear to be particularly technically difficult to write. I'd imagine any competent app developer could write something (with the server components) in a few days. (Obviously there might be testing on different models of device, things like security would need to be tested by suitably vetted people and it would need to connect to reliable production servers which may need a little more work).

Why hasn't an independent but trusted body (say a university or teaching hospital) written one? If some people use it, then it would have some benefit and if the word spread about it, many people would use it. After a while the government could encourage everyone to use this app (and people might trust a university or hospital more than a government project).

This fella works on the Covid apps for other countries it seems (in the interview it is mentioned).


https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1273740062...

Full interview 6:39 in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000k4f6/new...

[Jasandjules]

Zirconia said:

I expect there is more to this.

Going from the history of the current Govt, I think it is just they are feckwits. Assuming we double their IQs.

[pequod]

grumbledoak said:

"a few days"? You sound like one of my ex bosses! A couple of months tested on two platforms is pretty good going.

Apparently the standard of the app code is way above that of a Uni or teaching hospital - it's here I think:
https://github.com/nhsx/COVID-19-app-iOS-BETA

The problem is fundamentally one of privacy. The centralized database would be open to hacking, and the wholesale sale of the data has already been agreed:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/w...

It is also fundamentally a Bluetooth-enabled ID card in a country where we are "not required" to carry ID.

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

[pip t]

bhstewie said:

Zirconia said:

Apple has not been told about the UK government working on the App with Apple, they are not aware of what Hancock said yesterday nor understand his distance claims..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

I expect there is more to this.

I'd literally come to link to that article.

That's... odd.

It’s disappointing, not sure about odd. I’m assuming it’s essentially Mr Hancock making stuff up as he goes along, and failing to think that someone might ask Apple about it.

[Mr E]

grumbledoak said:

The bill looks to be £11M
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/test-and-trace-...

It does sound like it just didn't work on Apple devices.

So well done Apple. I've been a cheap Chinese Android fan, but I'll get an Apple SE with my next pay cheque.

I specifically work with iBeacons in an app (android and iOS).
It’s not rocket science.

My guess is they’ve tried to do something different (potentially Bluetooth connection between the two phones rather than an advertisement, allow for more measurements - hence the claim of greater accuracy?), and that’s breached what Apple allow you to do at the iOS level, breaking it in the background.

[Jasandjules]

pequod said:

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

Nor am I. But I object wholly to a fundamental breach of my freedoms for no good reason. And even with a good reason, I want to see proportionality.

[Mr E]

Jasandjules said:

pequod said:

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

Nor am I. But I object wholly to a fundamental breach of my freedoms for no good reason. And even with a good reason, I want to see proportionality.

Question - do you understand how the Apple/Google proposal will work? And if so, I’d be interested in your concerns.

I’m a security nerd. The NHS proposal was a bad idea, but I’d have swallowed my concerns and installed it “for the greater good”. And my life is pretty dull.

I have no particular concerns with the Apple/google framework from a privacy perspective.

[pequod]

Jasandjules said:

pequod said:

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

Nor am I. But I object wholly to a fundamental breach of my freedoms for no good reason. And even with a good reason, I want to see proportionality.

And there is no good reason, unless we all believe that the war against Covid19 is a real threat of multi million deaths, which patently it isn't, and an ID App tracing contacts of people tested with the virus may have some relevance.

I wonder if people in 1940 thought the same about ID cards? I would guess there were a few who objected to a breach of their fundament!!

[StanleyT]

Now I am not usually one for conspiracy theories and generally, in IT world I'm thicker than Whalesperm so I will believe owt I am told..

A colleague in the office today (we're back, yeah) who was always the world biggest tin hatter reckons there will be back door data tracking for .gov.uk to also correlate when groups of furloughed "staff" are in proximity to each other and relate that via government "big data" on NHS and HMRC portals?

I for one don't think that is true as it would require competent faultless IT systems, but after seeing what a relative went through with the PO Horizon system and the belief by those in charge about that I'm not so sure (that gig I was on a couple of days this week also has the same 'self prosecute' ability as to PO / RM do without CPS) I'd almost believe anything.

[V1nce Fox]

pequod said:

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

I see plenty wrong with being forced to carry ID cards. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear doesn't quite cut it for me personally.

[wl606]

Jasandjules said:

Zirconia said:

I expect there is more to this.

Going from the history of the current Govt, I think it is just they are feckwits. Assuming we double their IQs.

"The now-abandoned NHS app was tested on the Isle of Wight where it was downloaded more than 50,000 times.
However, it registered only about 4% of the iPhones that were nearby.
Islanders have now been asked to delete it."

World Beating!

[bitchstewie]

StanleyT said:

Now I am not usually one for conspiracy theories and generally, in IT world I'm thicker than Whalesperm so I will believe owt I am told..

A colleague in the office today (we're back, yeah) who was always the world biggest tin hatter reckons there will be back door data tracking for .gov.uk to also correlate when groups of furloughed "staff" are in proximity to each other and relate that via government "big data" on NHS and HMRC portals?

I for one don't think that is true as it would require competent faultless IT systems, but after seeing what a relative went through with the PO Horizon system and the belief by those in charge about that I'm not so sure (that gig I was on a couple of days this week also has the same 'self prosecute' ability as to PO / RM do without CPS) I'd almost believe anything.

Read it back to yourself.

[pequod]

V1nce Fox said:

pequod said:

Highlighted bit ... of course it is, if the App will be of any use, and that is it's stumbling block as we haven't had a need to carry ID cards since WW2 although I see no issue with ID cards myself as I'm neither someone who has something to hide from the authorities, an illegal immigrant, or a drug dealer, last time I checked!

I see plenty wrong with being forced to carry ID cards. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear doesn't quite cut it for me personally.

Genuinely asking, care to explain your fear of carrying an ID card or ID App?