Coronavirus - the killer flu that will wipe us out? (Vol. 7)

[NerveAgent]

otolith said:

FiF said:

otolith said:

konark said:

I was in Morrisons on Saturday and absolutely no-one was wearing a mask.

I visited several supermarkets yesterday looking for an item. In Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl and Asda I was pretty much the only person wearing one.

In Booths (for southerners, small Northern chain, think Waitrose) virtually everyone was wearing one.

Seems to be evidence that mask wearing is a social class indicator. Middle and professional class wearing, working manual class mainly not. Exceptions to that rule obviously but seems to be a trend.

That was my thought - and I have already heard claims that covid disproportionately hurts people from lower socioeconomic groups, just adds another mechanism.

It seems to be a way to indicate your tribe.

But I think it also ties in to the fact that middle class office workers have been largely unaffected by all this, many even bragging about how the “new normal” benefits them.

Where as working class/none office workers have had to carry on as normal.

It’s going to be interesting how this plays out in the next vote that doesn’t give the “right” result.

[grumbledoak]

jshell said:

Is the virus 'infectious' because the testing is throwing up many, many false positives? Seems the testing is not working: https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-te...

Apparently it doesn't distinguish between the cold, flu, measles, Ebola, etc...

Very interesting. I have read that PCR "tests" are not really tests, just amplifiers, and that testing is a misuse of them requiring some rather dubious "calibration". Analogous to turning your amp up to 11 and listening. You probably will hear something, but is it the music or just noise?
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-...

[anonymous-user]

Zoobeef said:

El stovey said:

Seems a bit judgy. Even if you don’t agree with it, it’s just common decency like if someone is religious I wouldn’t say I don’t believe in god unless asked or if I went to another country I’d try and respect their conventions.

To me masks seem like a good idea and I’m happy to wear one if I have to. I don’t normally if I’m just out and about though. I certainly don’t judge others who do.

Sometimes I go for a short ride on my (pedal) bike without a helmet or gloves, I’m not laughing quietly at people wearing a helmet.

I also quietly chuckle at people believing in sky faries so maybe its related. Given the only thing they both do is give you faith, rather than actually do anything.

Chuckling quietly to yourself due to other people's behaviour is diverting from the question about yourself, I get the feeling 'sod everyone else' is where it is at in light of any info to the contrary.

[rover 623gsi]

rover 623gsi said:

The figures yesterday were disappointing but it looks like there was a lot of backdating.... this is the NHS actual numbers from the last couple of day. It looks as though no deaths as yet reported from hospitals yesterday ( this is only hospital deaths )

NHS England have announced 38 (11 dates) COVID-19 deaths today. This is down from 39 (14 dates) last Saturday.

The number of deaths announced for yesterday is 0 - this number is likely to change.

So the big jump is deaths in the community (usually care homes) and these often have a lag in reporting.

As for the rise in infections compared to the previous Saturday this could be a result of more testing. The increase does appear to be mainly coming from the pillar two tests. It could also be that the overall number is being skewed by very localised spikes. I think if we saw three or four days of increases then it would be a concern but for now the overall trend is still down

Edited by rover 623gsi on Sunday 12th July 09:27

A chunk of that increase in positive tests linked to a fruit picking farm in Herefordshire

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/18577391.corona...

[otolith]

Zoobeef said:

I also quietly chuckle at people believing in sky faries so maybe its related. Given the only thing they both do is give you faith, rather than actually do anything.

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

[otolith]

grumbledoak said:

Very interesting. I have read that PCR "tests" are not really tests, just amplifiers, and that testing is a misuse of them requiring some rather dubious "calibration". Analogous to turning your amp up to 11 and listening. You probably will hear something, but is it the music or just noise?
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-...

That is unreadably mental.

If you want to form an opinion about whether PCR tests are meaningful, why don't you put the effort in and learn the underlying science instead of looking at fringe alternative fact sites?

[isaldiri]

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 12th July 12:10

[grumbledoak]

El stovey said:

FiF said:

Seems to be evidence that mask wearing is a social class indicator. Middle and professional class wearing, working manual class mainly not. Exceptions to that rule obviously but seems to be a trend.

As before not getting into premature adjudication as turbobloke accurately calls it. Going out and about trying to keep the wheels of life turning but not being a dick about it. Those out last night, pubs rammed, great heaving throng outside 'Spoons, mostly early twenties crowd at latest. A few older folks seemed to go to quiet places and went home early. We will see in a few weeks.

Isn’t that just social Darwinism in action. People that can see the sense in wearing a mask are likely to have better jobs, more money better education, people, who think it’s an assault on their freedoms, not so much. Same with things like heart disease or diet or other health related social indicators.

Obviously with the virus though It’s different as young people don’t need to worry about catching it.

We saw this at the start with panic buying of loo roll and fights etc all happening in the cheaper supermarkets same with Black Friday sales and so on.

It's simpler than that. Virtue signalling is purely a middle class hobby.

[otolith]

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

[survivalist]

otolith said:

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

It also presumes the individual thinks reducing the spread of the virus is a good thing. The alternative view is that by unsuccessfully attempting to suppress the virus, we are prolonging the other issues caused by social distancing, forcing business to stay closed etc

[otolith]

survivalist said:

otolith said:

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

It also presumes the individual thinks reducing the spread of the virus is a good thing. The alternative view is that by unsuccessfully attempting to suppress the virus, we are prolonging the other issues caused by social distancing, forcing business to stay closed etc

Yeah, I am also assuming that he isn't generally in favour of death and disease, which is maybe a shaky assumption these days.

[Dr Z]

grumbledoak said:

jshell said:

Is the virus 'infectious' because the testing is throwing up many, many false positives? Seems the testing is not working: https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/27/covid19-pcr-te...

Apparently it doesn't distinguish between the cold, flu, measles, Ebola, etc...

Very interesting. I have read that PCR "tests" are not really tests, just amplifiers, and that testing is a misuse of them requiring some rather dubious "calibration". Analogous to turning your amp up to 11 and listening. You probably will hear something, but is it the music or just noise?
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-...

Good God! How and where do you guys find these stuff? Doesn't distinguish between SarsCov2 and Ebola?

[isaldiri]

otolith said:

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

Can't speak for zoobeef but yes if the evidence changes of general transmission without masks in 'normal' settings that isn't the case with them then I'll change my mind.

Until then unless absolutely required by law there's no chance I'm wearing a mask/face covering as long as I'm not symptomatic.

[survivalist]

otolith said:

survivalist said:

otolith said:

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

It also presumes the individual thinks reducing the spread of the virus is a good thing. The alternative view is that by unsuccessfully attempting to suppress the virus, we are prolonging the other issues caused by social distancing, forcing business to stay closed etc

Yeah, I am also assuming that he isn't generally in favour of death and disease, which is maybe a shaky assumption these days.

That’s not what I meant. If you take the view that can’t suppress the virus, then up to the point that the health services are being overwhelmed where is the benefit in slowing the spread?

[anonymous-user]

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 12th July 12:10

If the above is correct then why do medical staff wear masks if they don't help very much in reducing the spread of infections? Are you saying that with adequate social distancing masks have minimal impact on the spread of infection?

[markyb_lcy]

gottans said:

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

So, if yours isn't a faith based position, you will immediately do an about turn if presented with evidence that face coverings are effective in reducing spread?

No because empirical evidence shows masks are simply not necessary to control the spread of covid and keep it at low levels. I agree it can reduce the spread but the net effect has been shown by quite a few studies to be pretty small and is not a required measure. Especially given transmission in shops/transport has not been shown to be a major issue otherwise we would never have been able to reduce cases to current levels.

Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 12th July 12:10

If the above is correct then why do medical staff wear masks if they don't help very much in reducing the spread of infections? Are you saying that with adequate social distancing masks have minimal impact on the spread of infection?

(Surgical) masks, or face coverings (of any kind or material)?

There is a world of difference.

[Alucidnation]

isaldiri said:

otolith said:

Yes, I'm asking him if he will change his position if evidence to the contrary emerges.

Until then unless absolutely required by law there's no chance I'm wearing a mask/face covering as long as I'm not symptomatic.

What if you are asymptomatic?

[TheDrBrian]

gottans said:

If the above is correct then why do medical staff wear masks if they don't help very much in reducing the spread of infections? Are you saying that with adequate social distancing masks have minimal impact on the spread of infection?

For the same reason I have a nice clean bench when i'm taking something apart compared to just topping up fluids. You body has defences when taking in stuff via the usual methods but if I start bypassing those defences and dumping stuff straight into the sterile bit you're going to have problems.

[steveo3002]

gottans said:

If the above is correct then why do medical staff wear masks if they don't help very much in reducing the spread of infections? Are you saying that with adequate social distancing masks have minimal impact on the spread of infection?

i would hope theyre medical grade masks , worn once , staff trained to not fidget and constanlty touch the mask , or pull it over their chin when they wish to speak , then dispose of it in a bin not stuffed into a pocket or handbag till next time or ran under the tap to "clean" it

[isaldiri]

Alucidnation said:

What if you are asymptomatic?

Then I'm not shedding enough of the virus simply by breathing to be very infectious and I don't tend to stand right up to people and speak in their faces.

given estimated over 50% of covid cases are asymptomatic lots of people should still have been getting infected in public transport/supermarkets/shops if asymptomatic transmission in general settings was an issue and that clearly has not been the case. Quite the opposite in fact....