Cummings and goings...
Discussion
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: They voted for a man who is a known and proven liar and who has absolutely no discernible moral compass and somehow expected that he would do the right thing by them and appear genuinely surprised when he doesn't.
.
Most politicians are narcissists and put power ahead of such niceties as truth or doing right. Boris is no different to most of them..
Some politicians have the good sense to work out who their base is and to try and avoid p*ssing them off. Promising one thing in a manifesto and then doing the polar opposite in government might seem clever but it scr*wed the Lib Dems and it nearly destroyed the Tories as well under May, until Boris and Cummings rescued them from their own folly.
So the short version of the above is that many were not relying on Boris's character only to have the basic common sense of what the coalition he assembled in 2019 was and how it could be kept happy. Covid-19 is a wild card in all this of course and Boris has already annoyed many of his voters (including me) on this issue.
El stovey said:
Bill said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean if only there was a way you could have guessed at his character and judgement before voting for him 
Would Boris ever have won if brexit wasn’t happening or if Corbyn wasn’t the alternative? Same with Trump.
As things are returning to the historic, more moderate norm in America and the U.K. and more traditional western liberal democracy is reappearing, it’s easy to say common sense won or take it as a victory for your own politics but these outliers are the result of something.
Boris/Cummings or Trump would never have happened in the first place if people were more content with the status quo or hadn’t been led to believe they were unhappy with the status quo.
To me the appearance of this kind of politics is indicative of something underlying being wrong, or perceived to be wrong, somewhere else.
Or maybe in the future people will be happier with more western liberal democracy after they’ve now seen some of the alternatives?
No type of government is perfect but I’d much prefer a return to Cameron May Blair type government than this dystopian experiment we’ve had in the U.K. over the last year. Hopefully the USA will be less polarised under Biden than trump and his divisive politics too.
Boris/Cummings and trump aren’t the same but there are definite parallels with populist policies differentiating the people and elites and painting the judiciary the media and other government institutions as the enemies of the people. A focus on foreigners, railing against wokism, bypassing or trying to bypass government checks and balances and change traditional government institutions.
Both Trump and Boris/Cummings governments discouraged dissenting views and the resulting echo chambers and group think led to poor decisions and alienated the core government decision makers from the rest of government and the population.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: As he says they now have an opportunity to show what they can do by themselves which sounds bloody obvious in the context of ministers and secretaries of state but it seems to be where we're at.
They’ve had that chance since the point they were elected to office and ever since.If Cummings has had too much power over the last year of the Boris premiership, it is simply because Boris gave it to him, and continued to allow it.
A more cooperative number 10 would be welcome at this point, but for some, including those of us who didn’t even vote for this muppet, it will be too little, too late. Still, we have to take what positives we can. The narcissist bully is out and his grip on the levers of power is gone.
JagLover said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
JagLover said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
To your second point, I think this is why too large a group of cabinet to ignore list patience and pushed hard for him to go. Pretty much since the election and certainly since Covid a centre-right group has emerged in cabinet who have been at odds with the the more radical elements of the PMs agenda .
So pretty much since the election which they won with this "radical agenda" they have been agitating to change it. Some things never change, and politicians thinking the manifestos they stand on are a series of lies to fool the electorate is one of them it appears.
On the future relationship with the EU
2019Manifesto said:
There will be no political alignment with the EU. We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any
form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that
allows us to:
? Take back control of our laws.
? Take back control of our money.
? Control our own trade policy.
? Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system.
? Raise standards in areas like workers’
rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
the environment.
? Ensure we are in full control of our
fishing waters.
On immigrationform of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that
allows us to:
? Take back control of our laws.
? Take back control of our money.
? Control our own trade policy.
? Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system.
? Raise standards in areas like workers’
rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
the environment.
? Ensure we are in full control of our
fishing waters.
Conservative2019manifesto said:
Only by establishing immigration controls and ending freedom of movement will we be able to attract
the high-skilled workers we need to contribute to our economy, our communities and our public services.
There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down. And we will ensure that the British
people are always in control.
the high-skilled workers we need to contribute to our economy, our communities and our public services.
There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down. And we will ensure that the British
people are always in control.
El stovey said:
Like all these famous low probability outcomes though they need a very specific set of circumstances to happen.
Would Boris ever have won if brexit wasn’t happening or if Corbyn wasn’t the alternative? Same with Trump.
As things are returning to the historic, more moderate norm in America and the U.K. and more traditional western liberal democracy is reappearing, it’s easy to say common sense won or take it as a victory for your own politics but these outliers are the result of something....
Boris Vs Corbyn: I couldn't vote for either, but can at least understand why people turned out in their droves for Boris.Would Boris ever have won if brexit wasn’t happening or if Corbyn wasn’t the alternative? Same with Trump.
As things are returning to the historic, more moderate norm in America and the U.K. and more traditional western liberal democracy is reappearing, it’s easy to say common sense won or take it as a victory for your own politics but these outliers are the result of something....
Trump Vs Clinton is less understandable imo, but she did win the most votes even if he got the prize.
Trump Vs Biden I really don't get. Sure Biden won, and plenty of Republicans turned over to Biden, but Trump still got absolutely masses of votes. Hordes and hordes of people looked at the s
t show and liked it.Populism isn't dead, it's just had a setback.
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
768 said:
I can't keep up with who people think is Boris' puppet master from one hour to the next at the moment.
The names of those people change as often as the hours as well, although Larry the cat has as yet not been mentioned, so I'll get in first Looks like Cummings was Boris’s puppet master since the brexit campaign and now Carrie has finally got rid of him and is the main one influencing Boris.
It can’t be a new concept to either of you that Cummings has had too much influence in government recently?
The names changing “as often as the hours” etc seems to me like there’s only been two main influences.
You two were attempting to negate criticism of Boris by joking about other posters and them saying he’s a puppet.
Johnson and his team has been increasingly poor for months on end, what we are seeing now is for a large part a consequence of just that.
Next May will be Johnson's crucial time, he's got 6 months to turn it around or he's gone, I suspect the end of December may well define the outcome. Johnson may well face the same s*itstorm May faced and suffered from after the European elections only 18 odd months ago.
Johnson has Amanda [something] as press liaison. She used to be with ITN and always seemed to talk sense. She will know what journos want and, presumably, will not be antagonistic towards them. No longer the enemy? So there’s a possible improvement. The suggestion is she’ll have a podium on Johnson’s press briefings.
But Cummings out and Carrie in; is there going to be much in the way of change there? If, as some seem to think possible, she’s just as controlling, then the tories are in danger of losing the back benchers. There has been a fair bit of anti in the voting of recent times. It might be down to the newcomers not being wined and dined by the great, the good and, on the other side, the whips, to get them onside.
Symonds has some bottle. She opted out of anonymity in the case of Worboys. Got to admire her for that, especially as she was the only one who did. Shows she's not to be messed with.
If, as seems possible, Cummings was briefing against Ms Symonds, the less than charitable might assume he did so because she was cutting in on his territory. If so then the days of challenges for influence are not over.
Cummings is suggesting that he was going in any case, and all that has happened is that it is a ‘few’ weeks earlier than he intended. There was no row, he says. So just an amicable sacking then?
As most people have suggested, interesting times ahead.
But Cummings out and Carrie in; is there going to be much in the way of change there? If, as some seem to think possible, she’s just as controlling, then the tories are in danger of losing the back benchers. There has been a fair bit of anti in the voting of recent times. It might be down to the newcomers not being wined and dined by the great, the good and, on the other side, the whips, to get them onside.
Symonds has some bottle. She opted out of anonymity in the case of Worboys. Got to admire her for that, especially as she was the only one who did. Shows she's not to be messed with.
If, as seems possible, Cummings was briefing against Ms Symonds, the less than charitable might assume he did so because she was cutting in on his territory. If so then the days of challenges for influence are not over.
Cummings is suggesting that he was going in any case, and all that has happened is that it is a ‘few’ weeks earlier than he intended. There was no row, he says. So just an amicable sacking then?
As most people have suggested, interesting times ahead.
Bill said:
Boris Vs Corbyn: I couldn't vote for either, but can at least understand why people turned out in their droves for Boris.
Trump Vs Clinton is less understandable imo, but she did win the most votes even if he got the prize.
Trump Vs Biden I really don't get. Sure Biden won, and plenty of Republicans turned over to Biden, but Trump still got absolutely masses of votes. Hordes and hordes of people looked at the st show and liked it.
Populism isn't dead, it's just had a setback.
Fair.Trump Vs Clinton is less understandable imo, but she did win the most votes even if he got the prize.
Trump Vs Biden I really don't get. Sure Biden won, and plenty of Republicans turned over to Biden, but Trump still got absolutely masses of votes. Hordes and hordes of people looked at the s
t show and liked it.Populism isn't dead, it's just had a setback.
70 odd million still voted for Trump and in an election tomorrow there would still be a massive turnout for Johnson with or without Cummings.
The frothing nutjobs on either side of the debate on here aren't representative of most people out there yet as you say "hordes and hordes of people looked at the s
t show and liked it" and would probably choose to repeat it.Bill said:
Trump Vs Biden I really don't get. Sure Biden won, and plenty of Republicans turned over to Biden, but Trump still got absolutely masses of votes. Hordes and hordes of people looked at the st show and liked it.
...or hated the alternative more, not Biden the democrats. t show and liked it.Bill said:
Populism isn't dead, it's just had a setback.
Well it all depends on how you are defining it. Someone claimed on a forum I was on that a journalist on the Today programme said that "economic populism was about acting in favour of the working class" (didn't listen to it myself so don't know if it is true). But that seems to be about the gist of current establishment thinking. If you want to govern on behalf of the average working man and woman you are "populist".The centre cannot hold if it has nothing to offer the average voter.
Derek Smith]Johnson has Amanda [something said:
as press liaison. She used to be with ITN and always seemed to talk sense. She will know what journos want and, presumably, will not be antagonistic towards them. No longer the enemy? So there’s a possible improvement. The suggestion is she’ll have a podium on Johnson’s press briefings.
Do you mean Allegra Stratton?. She's a Remainer so I am sure she and the media will get on very well. All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
JagLover said:
Well it all depends on how you are defining it. Someone claimed on a forum I was on that a journalist on the Today programme said that "economic populism was about acting in favour of the working class" (didn't listen to it myself so don't know if it is true). But that seems to be about the gist of current establishment thinking. If you want to govern on behalf of the average working man and woman you are "populist".
The centre cannot hold if it has nothing to offer the average voter.
Populism has a little more to it than that I believe. It requires painting “elites” and championing the cause of the masses against those elites.The centre cannot hold if it has nothing to offer the average voter.
It worked for Brexit because the elites were painted as the unelected EU politicians and the nasty economists who only want to make money for themselves.
It doesn’t quite work for a traditional Conservative party outside of Brexit because quite frankly they are the “elites”.
It also doesn’t work in the context of a covid-19 authoritarian state because the masses are the people wanting to get back to normal life and the “elites” are the Boris govt and SAGE modellers.
JagLover said:
Do you mean Allegra Stratton?. She's a Remainer so I am sure she and the media will get on very well.
All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
She lost me a bit at "they represent a Cameronian, Remainer Toryism vanity-signalling so-called ‘progressive liberalism’, the green and LGBT, hug-a-hoodie, easy radicalism."All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
Christ you're up to your neck in this stuff aren't you
JagLover said:
Do you mean Allegra Stratton?. She's a Remainer so I am sure she and the media will get on very well.
All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
Can't wait until we can have a vote on leaving the EU as then, people will stop going on about it ad nauseum.All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:JagLover said:
Do you mean Allegra Stratton?. She's a Remainer so I am sure she and the media will get on very well.
All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
She lost me a bit at "they represent a Cameronian, Remainer Toryism vanity-signalling so-called ‘progressive liberalism’, the green and LGBT, hug-a-hoodie, easy radicalism."All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
Christ you're up to your neck in this stuff aren't you
And it would have been quicker to just call it what it is - the latest incarnation of New Labour/ Cameron's Blue Labour.
JagLover said:
Do you mean Allegra Stratton?. She's a Remainer so I am sure she and the media will get on very well.
All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
This isn't about 2 sides of a referendum held four years ago. Isn't it about time you enjoyed your victory and moved on?All the changes seem to be going down well over at Conservative Woman
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-ever-did-i...
Unknown_User said:
El stovey said:
Bill said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean if only there was a way you could have guessed at his character and judgement before voting for him
Would Boris ever have won if brexit wasn’t happening or if Corbyn wasn’t the alternative? Same with Trump.
As things are returning to the historic, more moderate norm in America and the U.K. and more traditional western liberal democracy is reappearing, it’s easy to say common sense won or take it as a victory for your own politics but these outliers are the result of something.
Boris/Cummings or Trump would never have happened in the first place if people were more content with the status quo or hadn’t been led to believe they were unhappy with the status quo.
To me the appearance of this kind of politics is indicative of something underlying being wrong, or perceived to be wrong, somewhere else.
Or maybe in the future people will be happier with more western liberal democracy after they’ve now seen some of the alternatives?
No type of government is perfect but I’d much prefer a return to Cameron May Blair type government than this dystopian experiment we’ve had in the U.K. over the last year. Hopefully the USA will be less polarised under Biden than trump and his divisive politics too.
Boris/Cummings and trump aren’t the same but there are definite parallels with populist policies differentiating the people and elites and painting the judiciary the media and other government institutions as the enemies of the people. A focus on foreigners, railing against wokism, bypassing or trying to bypass government checks and balances and change traditional government institutions.
Both Trump and Boris/Cummings governments discouraged dissenting views and the resulting echo chambers and group think led to poor decisions and alienated the core government decision makers from the rest of government and the population.
markyb_lcy said:
JagLover said:
Well it all depends on how you are defining it. Someone claimed on a forum I was on that a journalist on the Today programme said that "economic populism was about acting in favour of the working class" (didn't listen to it myself so don't know if it is true). But that seems to be about the gist of current establishment thinking. If you want to govern on behalf of the average working man and woman you are "populist".
The centre cannot hold if it has nothing to offer the average voter.
Populism has a little more to it than that I believe. It requires painting “elites” and championing the cause of the masses against those elites.The centre cannot hold if it has nothing to offer the average voter.
It worked for Brexit because the elites were painted as the unelected EU politicians and the nasty economists who only want to make money for themselves.
It doesn’t quite work for a traditional Conservative party outside of Brexit because quite frankly they are the “elites”.
It also doesn’t work in the context of a covid-19 authoritarian state because the masses are the people wanting to get back to normal life and the “elites” are the Boris govt and SAGE modellers.
Populism isn’t just doing what’s “popular” with the people it’s about an us vs them ‘enemies of the people’ mentality, we’ve seen it with trump and boris as they’ve tried to alienate judges, the media, lawyers and parts of government making out that they represent the less well off and blaming the elites and the checks and balances of the state for their problems.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff