US Riots

[thewarlock]

Pan Pan Pan said:

No I am not going to try to justify what happened to Mr Floyd, But I asked you to tell us what happened which changed Mr Floyd from being an ordinary citizen, quietly going about his daily business, to being on the ground with a coppers knew on his neck, to which your ridiculous reply, was that it was irrelevant FFS! .
Do you believe it is standard police procedure for police to get people on the ground, and put a knee on their neck, when they apprehend all and any people and for any offence?.
As posted before, the bleeding heart liberal virtue signalers, don't want the whole story of an incident to be shown / known, because all too often it does not support their `seen a bit of it in a
video safe smug view' of what actually happened.
If you can show where it is standard police procedure to get people on the ground, and put a knee on their neck, even if the apprehended individual was coming quietly, then I may be able to change my view, but until you can do that, you are just p*ssing in the wind.

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but you're doing a great job of making my point for me.

It is absolutely not standard procedure. The man had been restrained, this was obvious to everyone watching, yet that cop kneeled on his neck until he died. Rgardless of what he'd done beforehand, that is not acceptable behaviour from a police officer, and you know this.

So instead of asking me what happened before hand, to try and change your view, why don't you try and justify your position, I'd be interested to hear it.

And you can keep your 'bleedin heart liberal' BS hyperbole, I explained my views, and they are anything but.

[Gogoplata]

Sam.M said:

thewarlock said:

The one where that cop kneeled on his neck until he died. What other video could I possibly have been talking about?

The full body cam video from the start of the incident where Floyd was resisting right from the off.

There's going to be a sh-tshow when the cop gets off.

Not saying I want that to happen by any means but that's what I think will happen.

Edited by Sam.M on Thursday 29th October 11:28

The bit when the cops wound down the windows for him after Floyd said that he couldn't breath in the back of the police car was brutal!

[anonymous-user]

thewarlock said:

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but you're doing a great job of making my point for me.

It is absolutely not standard procedure. The man had been restrained, this was obvious to everyone watching, yet that cop kneeled on his neck until he died. Rgardless of what he'd done beforehand, that is not acceptable behaviour from a police officer, and you know this.

https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-police-trained-to-use-neck-restraint-george-floyd-2020-7

Manual contained here:-

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Pr...

Knee on neck restraint is absolutely trained for in the MPD.

Whether or not it was warranted in the situation will be one of the major points in the court case, along with Floyds initial resistance and toxicology report.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 29th October 11:40

[thewarlock]

Sam.M said:

https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-police-trained...

Manual contained here:-

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Pr...

Knee on neck restraint is absolutely trained for in the MPD.

Whether or not it was warranted in the situation will be one of the major points in the court case, along with Floyds initial resistance and toxicology report.

Edited by Sam.M on Thursday 29th October 11:40

At approximately 8:22, the officers called for an ambulance on a non-emergency basis, escalating the call to emergency status a minute later.[11]:4:50[15]:4:42 Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck.[15]:5:15 A passerby yelled to Floyd, "Well, get up, get in the car, man", and Floyd, still handcuffed and face down on the pavement, responded, "I can't", while Chauvin's knee remained on his neck.[15]:5:26 Floyd cried out "Mama!" twice.[65][66] Floyd said, "My stomach hurts, my neck hurts, everything hurts", requested water,[65] and begged, "Don't kill me."[67] One witness pointed out that Floyd was bleeding from the nose.[68] Another told the officers that Floyd was "not even resisting arrest right now".[30] Thao countered that Floyd was "talking, he's fine"; a witness replied that Floyd "ain't fine ... Get him off the ground ... You could have put him in the car by now. He's not resisting arrest or nothing. You're enjoying it. Look at you. Your body language explains it."[68][69] As Floyd continued to cry for help, Thao said to witnesses: "This is why you don't do drugs, kids."[70]

By 8:25, Floyd appeared unconscious, and bystanders confronted the officers about Floyd's condition. Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away as Thao moved between them and Chauvin.[71][72] Bystanders repeatedly yelled that Floyd was "not responsive right now" and urged the officers to check his pulse.[11]:5:22[15]:6:53[7] Kueng checked Floyd's wrist but found no pulse;[7] the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance.[15]:6:46 According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side,[73] and Chauvin said no.[15]:7:02

Medical response and death
At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[11]:5:56[15]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[11]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse.[15]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[15]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][11]:6:27[15]:7:28[7]

Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[74] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[11]:6:35[15]:7:43[7] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[11]:6:35[15]:7:43[7] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[11]:6:56[15]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[15]:7:56[75] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[15]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[11]:6:56

Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.[11]:7:12[15]:8:28[7][76]

You're really going to defend this?

[anonymous-user]

thewarlock said:

You're really going to defend this?

Untwist your knickers please.

I'm not defending it.

Let's try this again.

Sam.M said:

Manual contained here:-

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Pr...

Knee on neck restraint is absolutely trained for in the MPD.

Whether or not it was warranted in the situation will be one of the major points in the court case, along with Floyds initial resistance and toxicology report.

So.

1. I state that MPD officers are trained for knee on neck restraint, as evidenced by the manual linked above.
2. I state that whether this was proportional will be the focus of the court case
3. Floyd resisted from the outset - evidenced by the body cam video leaked some time ago now. This will factor in the court case.
4. Floyd's tox report will factor in the court case.

You need to understand the difference between is and ought.

I'm stating what I think IS going to happen in court, not what I think OUGHT to happen.

Floyds death was tragic and avoidable. That is unarguable.

Do not take me pointing out the facts that will be considered as part of the court case as "defending" his death, you utter bell.

[Pan Pan Pan]

thewarlock said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

No I am not going to try to justify what happened to Mr Floyd, But I asked you to tell us what happened which changed Mr Floyd from being an ordinary citizen, quietly going about his daily business, to being on the ground with a coppers knew on his neck, to which your ridiculous reply, was that it was irrelevant FFS! .
Do you believe it is standard police procedure for police to get people on the ground, and put a knee on their neck, when they apprehend all and any people and for any offence?.
As posted before, the bleeding heart liberal virtue signalers, don't want the whole story of an incident to be shown / known, because all too often it does not support their `seen a bit of it in a
video safe smug view' of what actually happened.
If you can show where it is standard police procedure to get people on the ground, and put a knee on their neck, even if the apprehended individual was coming quietly, then I may be able to change my view, but until you can do that, you are just p*ssing in the wind.

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but you're doing a great job of making my point for me.

It is absolutely not standard procedure. The man had been restrained, this was obvious to everyone watching, yet that cop kneeled on his neck until he died. Rgardless of what he'd done beforehand, that is not acceptable behaviour from a police officer, and you know this.

So instead of asking me what happened before hand, to try and change your view, why don't you try and justify your position, I'd be interested to hear it.

And you can keep your 'bleedin heart liberal' BS hyperbole, I explained my views, and they are anything but.

So you DONT know what happened between when Mr Floyd was quietly going about his business, to when he was on the ground with a coppers knee on his neck, and want to base your viewpoint on just the bit that was shown on a video, but not the details of what lead up to that unfortunate incident.
NO one is saying that what happened to Mr Floyd was justified. But until you have ALL the facts which lead up to this unfortunate incident, you are just making a judgement based on incomplete and imperfect information/evidence which is never a satisfactory way of legally dealing with an incident.
It could just as easily be that If Mr Floyd had just followed police instructions, he would have been placed into a patrol vehicle, and taken to the nearest police station for processing. Why didn't that happen?
The way your view is going it would seem in your book, that getting people on the ground, and kneeling on their neck is normal police procedure during an arrest, which every sane person knows is not the case.

[Terzo123]

thewarlock said:

At approximately 8:22, the officers called for an ambulance on a non-emergency basis, escalating the call to emergency status a minute later.[11]:4:50[15]:4:42 Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck.[15]:5:15 A passerby yelled to Floyd, "Well, get up, get in the car, man", and Floyd, still handcuffed and face down on the pavement, responded, "I can't", while Chauvin's knee remained on his neck.[15]:5:26 Floyd cried out "Mama!" twice.[65][66] Floyd said, "My stomach hurts, my neck hurts, everything hurts", requested water,[65] and begged, "Don't kill me."[67] One witness pointed out that Floyd was bleeding from the nose.[68] Another told the officers that Floyd was "not even resisting arrest right now".[30] Thao countered that Floyd was "talking, he's fine"; a witness replied that Floyd "ain't fine ... Get him off the ground ... You could have put him in the car by now. He's not resisting arrest or nothing. You're enjoying it. Look at you. Your body language explains it."[68][69] As Floyd continued to cry for help, Thao said to witnesses: "This is why you don't do drugs, kids."[70]

By 8:25, Floyd appeared unconscious, and bystanders confronted the officers about Floyd's condition. Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away as Thao moved between them and Chauvin.[71][72] Bystanders repeatedly yelled that Floyd was "not responsive right now" and urged the officers to check his pulse.[11]:5:22[15]:6:53[7] Kueng checked Floyd's wrist but found no pulse;[7] the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance.[15]:6:46 According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side,[73] and Chauvin said no.[15]:7:02

Medical response and death
At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[11]:5:56[15]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[11]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse.[15]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[15]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][11]:6:27[15]:7:28[7]

Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[74] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[11]:6:35[15]:7:43[7] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[11]:6:35[15]:7:43[7] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[11]:6:56[15]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[15]:7:56[75] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[15]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[11]:6:56

Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.[11]:7:12[15]:8:28[7][76]

You're really going to defend this?

I dont think he was defending the action. Just pointing out that you were wrong.

The rest of the transcript prior to 8.22 is very interesting. Why didn't you post that aswell?

[thewarlock]

Sam.M said:

So.

1. I state that MPD officers are trained for knee on neck restraint, as evidenced by the manual linked above.
2. I state that whether this was proportional will be the focus of the court case
3. Floyd resisted from the outset - evidenced by the body cam video leaked some time ago now. This will factor in the court case.
4. Floyd's tox report will factor in the court case.

You need to understand the difference between is and ought.

I'm stating what I think IS going to happen in court, not what I think OUGHT to happen.

Floyds death was tragic and avoidable. That is unarguable.

Do not take me pointing out the facts that will be considered as part of the court case as "defending" his death, you utter bell.

Ok, first of all, there's no need for the name calling, it makes you look like a bit of a loon and detracts from your point.

Secondly, yes, I had misinterpreted your point. For that I apologise. My knickers are not in a twist, thanks for the concern though.

[anonymous-user]

I can live with being called a loon if what I posted got my point across. Sometimes a counterpoint to someone accusing you of excusing someone being effectively murdered requires a strong response, which you got.

My view of the situation is the cop will get off.

Again IS not OUGHT.

[thewarlock]

Pan Pan Pan said:

So you DONT know what happened between when Mr Floyd was quietly going about his business, to when he was on the ground with a coppers knee on his neck, and want to base your viewpoint on just the bit that was shown on a video, but not the details of what lead up to that unfortunate incident.
NO one is saying that what happened to Mr Floyd was justified. But until you have ALL the facts which lead up to this unfortunate incident, you are just making a judgement based on incomplete and imperfect information/evidence which is never a satisfactory way of legally dealing with an incident.
It could just as easily be that If Mr Floyd had just followed police instructions, he would have been placed into a patrol vehicle, and taken to the nearest police station for processing. Why didn't that happen?
The way your view is going it would seem in your book, that getting people on the ground, and kneeling on their neck is normal police procedure during an arrest, which every sane person knows is not the case.

No, I don't, like I said, I don't believe it's relevant.

Did you read the transcript? Do you agree that the actions taken were appalling? If you agree that there was no justification for his death, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

[thewarlock]

Sam.M said:

I can live with being called a loon if what I posted got my point across. Sometimes a counterpoint to someone accusing you of excusing someone being effectively murdered requires a strong response, which you got.

My view of the situation is the cop will get off.

Again IS not OUGHT.

For the record, I accused you of nothing.

[thewarlock]

Terzo123 said:

I dont think he was defending the action. Just pointing out that you were wrong.

I see that now, and have apologised.

Terzo123 said:

The rest of the transcript prior to 8.22 is very interesting. Why didn't you post that aswell?

I don't believe it to be relevant. Whether he had been using fake money to buy smokes or selling crack to babies, there is no excuse for his death in the manner in which it happened, in my opinion.

[anonymous-user]

thewarlock said:

For the record, I accused you of nothing.

So what was it you thought I was "defending" if not the death of a man at the hands of a cop? If that's not an accusation...

[thewarlock]

Sam.M said:

thewarlock said:

For the record, I accused you of nothing.

So what was it you thought I was "defending" if not the death of a man at the hands of a cop? If that's not an accusation...

There was a misunderstanding, and I asked if you were going to defend it.

You could have said "No" and clarified your position without bring my knickers into it

I've apologised for the misunderstanding, not sure what else I can say at this point.

[anonymous-user]

Happy to let it drop.

[Gadgetmac]

Pan Pan Pan said:

That is most definitely the case with you.

"Police say they fatally shot Wallace on Monday after he ignored orders to drop a knife, a death that intensified already heightened tensions in the presidential battleground state. Wallace’s mother said she warned police Monday afternoon that her son was in the throes of a mental health crisis."

Not orders to "stand still" or "stay where he was".

https://apnews.com/article/body-cam-911-tapes-walt...

This wouldn't have happened in the UK.

[blackrabbit]

Gadgetmac said:

"Police say they fatally shot Wallace on Monday after he ignored orders to drop a knife, a death that intensified already heightened tensions in the presidential battleground state. Wallace’s mother said she warned police Monday afternoon that her son was in the throes of a mental health crisis."

Not orders to "stand still" or "stay where he was".

https://apnews.com/article/body-cam-911-tapes-walt...

This wouldn't have happened in the UK.

Is that a good thing or bad thing? When criminals walk towards police threatening them with knives what are they supposed to do? Imagine no police were there as this maniac was running around with a knife he could have killed innocent people. Now we have the usual scum rioting and looting for no reason. If an innocent person was stabbed by this guy there would not be rioting and the rioters would feel no sympathy.

[Pan Pan Pan]

thewarlock said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

So you DONT know what happened between when Mr Floyd was quietly going about his business, to when he was on the ground with a coppers knee on his neck, and want to base your viewpoint on just the bit that was shown on a video, but not the details of what lead up to that unfortunate incident.
NO one is saying that what happened to Mr Floyd was justified. But until you have ALL the facts which lead up to this unfortunate incident, you are just making a judgement based on incomplete and imperfect information/evidence which is never a satisfactory way of legally dealing with an incident.
It could just as easily be that If Mr Floyd had just followed police instructions, he would have been placed into a patrol vehicle, and taken to the nearest police station for processing. Why didn't that happen?
The way your view is going it would seem in your book, that getting people on the ground, and kneeling on their neck is normal police procedure during an arrest, which every sane person knows is not the case.

No, I don't, like I said, I don't believe it's relevant.

Did you read the transcript? Do you agree that the actions taken were appalling? If you agree that there was no justification for his death, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

Of course what happened to Mr Floyd was appalling. But you seem to be either deliberately missing the point, or writing off salient evidence, with the ridiculous reply that in `your' view it is irrelevant.
NO details of this case are irrelevant , unless of course they don't happen to fit in with your oddly biased narrative, .in which case, (as is typical for bleeding heart liberal; virtue signalers who cannot, or do not want to face the `whole' truth) you don't want all the details to be known, especially those that don't support your rather deliberately restricted view of the incident.
So only the details which support `your' view are acceptable, and should be considered, and those that don't, are irrelevant?
What I want to know is ALL of what actually happened between Mr Floyd being an ordinary citizen going quietly about his daily business, to being on the ground with a coppers knee on his neck, I never once said there was any justification for what happened to him, But I do want know what actually happened. not `just' the bits that support `your' view of the incident.

[andy_s]

Gadgetmac said:

This wouldn't have happened in the UK.

This goes to the heart of the problem of understanding this properly; UK isn't US - general civilian weapon availability, culture & police weapons and protocols are on different planets. It's a very false equivalence - forget everything you think you know and delve into it. Moments of confusion are opportunities for learning...

Similarly, while all deaths are of course tragic, this does happen 3 times a day, every day, 2 white and 1 black killed during police interaction. While amongst those numbers there will be some 'borderline' examples [and perhaps more egregious ones], the ones that have been selected and presented to us as examples of police brutality / racism have been particularly poor. This doesn't preclude that there are racists - there are racist doctors and plumbers too - nor that race may have something to do with some proportion of deaths, but none of these examples really show that.

You could save 300 black lives a year if you told everyone to comply with police and they did. But that is fantasy of course.

[thewarlock]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Of course what happened to Mr Floyd was appalling. But you seem to be either deliberately missing the point, or writing off salient evidence, with the ridiculous reply that in `your' view it is irrelevant.
NO details of this case are irrelevant , unless of course they don't happen to fit in with your oddly biased narrative, .in which case, (as is typical for bleeding heart liberal; virtue signalers who cannot, or do not want to face the `whole' truth) you don't want all the details to be known, especially those that don't support your rather deliberately restricted view of the incident.
So only the details which support `your' view are acceptable, and should be considered, and those that don't, are irrelevant?
What I want to know is ALL of what actually happened between Mr Floyd being an ordinary citizen going quietly about his daily business, to being on the ground with a coppers knee on his neck, I never once said there was any justification for what happened to him, But I do want know what actually happened. not `just' the bits that support `your' view of the incident.

Again with the bleeding heart liberal nonsense.

Stop trying to paint this picture of people that do not agree with you please. It's sad.

I'm glad you agree that it was appalling though.

As for only accepting details that support my opinion, this is simply not true.

If you really want to know what happened, I'm sure you're capable of finding that out by yourself.

You already know this though, correct? And it seems you agree that it's not valid justification for his death, yes?