Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)
Discussion
El stovey said:
By becoming Corbyn And McDonnell centric and not having a brexit strategy labour went down to a heavy defeat.
Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
Well clearly personalities matter as well, but underneath them and the daily circle of news, most of it meaningless, politics is realigning in this country.Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
The Conservatives had a 15% lead among people on low incomes in the 2019 election and the Conservatives are now more popular among people on low incomes than they are among people on high incomes.
https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/low-income-voters-20...
s2art said:
El stovey said:
By becoming Corbyn And McDonnell centric and not having a brexit strategy labour went down to a heavy defeat.
Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
Boris was very unpopular? Any evidence for this. IIRC Boris was amongst the most popular politicians.Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:IforB said:
Good try to attempt to move the discussion into one about emotion rather than fact.
We can all see what has and hasn't been done and getting angry about it isn't actually necessary to make a point.
The simple and appalling fact that 65,000 Brits are dead needs little embellishing. It is simply awful.
We all know that Johnson has direct responsibility for a good proportion of those deaths by the terrible response at the beginning of this crisis. That is an incontrovertible fact.
Like it or lump it, a lot of our fellow country folk are dead and many more are mourning because of the inability of our PM.
I find that extremely unpleasant. I cannot imagine why you don't.
Team.We can all see what has and hasn't been done and getting angry about it isn't actually necessary to make a point.
The simple and appalling fact that 65,000 Brits are dead needs little embellishing. It is simply awful.
We all know that Johnson has direct responsibility for a good proportion of those deaths by the terrible response at the beginning of this crisis. That is an incontrovertible fact.
Like it or lump it, a lot of our fellow country folk are dead and many more are mourning because of the inability of our PM.
I find that extremely unpleasant. I cannot imagine why you don't.
Don't overthink it.
Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
El stovey said:
s2art said:
El stovey said:
By becoming Corbyn And McDonnell centric and not having a brexit strategy labour went down to a heavy defeat.
Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
Boris was very unpopular? Any evidence for this. IIRC Boris was amongst the most popular politicians.Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
If -5 is ‘very unpopular’, how would you describe Corbyn’s -30?
jakesmith said:
No, not at all and you are being disingenuous saying so and even admitted so recently on another thread as you well know.
Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
Perhaps as an alternative to the negative narrative towards the UKs pandemic decisions, you could tell us what Boris and the government did well regarding the handling of the pandemic? Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
jakesmith said:
El stovey said:
s2art said:
El stovey said:
By becoming Corbyn And McDonnell centric and not having a brexit strategy labour went down to a heavy defeat.
Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
Boris was very unpopular? Any evidence for this. IIRC Boris was amongst the most popular politicians.Both Corbyn and Boris were very unpopular but Corbyn was more unpopular.
If -5 is ‘very unpopular’, how would you describe Corbyn’s -30?
“Do you have a favourable or unfavourable opinion of the following” he became more popular after the election but that’s not what was being discussed.
I said both were unpopular pre election but corbyn was more unpopular and someone asked for evidence saying Boris was very popular pre election which is not the case.
El stovey said:
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
Perhaps you could cite these experts. As we went into lockdown when the SAGE committee recommended we did.The tens of thousands of deaths were primarily among the very elderly and vulnerable so that is an entirely separate issue to lockdown in my view. What mattered in saving their lives was preventing it spreading in hospitals and care homes. the government could clearly have done far better on the latter but that is an entirely separate issue to saying all would have been well if the healthy population were locked down earlier.
We are not NZ. We are an international hub and cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world until a vaccine is found. It looks like the HI threshold was overestimated and so London is close. Just waiting for the rest of the country to catch up.
El stovey said:
Perhaps as an alternative to the negative narrative towards the UKs pandemic decisions, you could tell us what Boris and the government did well regarding the handling of the pandemic?
I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
Indeed, I think he described Boris’s performance as ‘half decent’, it’s hard to know where to start really. I guess we all have different levels of expectation, my view is that we are getting what we deserve with Boris, no transparency, no detail, lazy policy formulation with shambolic execution and a manipulation of the press and public. I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
jakesmith said:
No, not at all and you are being disingenuous saying so and even admitted so recently on another thread as you well know.
Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
I'd suggest watching the interview Johnson did with Nick Ferrari this week.Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
He was asked about our performance during the pandemic.
It's right at the start of the video so you don't have to search for it.
Let's just say rather than declaring it a fantastic success and putting the doomsters and gloomsters in their place Johnson chose to "kick the can down the road" with his choice of words.
I thought it was quite revealing as to how he sees it.
Boris Johnson takes your calls on LBC
Incidentally as much as I'll make some allowances for not being able to get a haircut in the current climate that is our f
king Prime Minister.Still it's only half-time.
El stovey said:
Perhaps as an alternative to the negative narrative towards the UKs pandemic decisions, you could tell us what Boris and the government did well regarding the handling of the pandemic?
I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
If you think the pandemic is now over and the virus will disappear or a vaccine is just around the corner then I would agree with your supposition. Personally I think the opposite and those countries that suppressed the virus have just set themselves up for a whole world of pain later in the year when winter comes. IMHO it is far too early to call game over and decide we have done all the wrong things. Time will tell in the long run.I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
No, not at all and you are being disingenuous saying so and even admitted so recently on another thread as you well know.
Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
Perhaps as an alternative to the negative narrative towards the UKs pandemic decisions, you could tell us what Boris and the government did well regarding the handling of the pandemic? Just because I despise the previous Labour team and think they marked the absolute low point of U.K. politics in my lifetime, makes me no fan of the Conservatives or Johnson at present. In fact I would love to see a resurgent Labour without the utter cretins and racists involved or supporting them that have marred a once-great institution.
I just disagree with self-proclaimed expert on all matters from the aviation industry through to a highly complex and nuanced global pandemic, stating as facts that decisions made were clearly wrong.
Why bother with an enquiry at all, just get internet bore IforB to write up a short 2 page report excoriating Boris Johnson and be done with it. Quite how he can have such certainty from his armchair I don’t think anyone knows but I would suggest for every ‘indisputable fact’ he comes out with there is a credible person that can explain the flaws in the half-baked drivel he takes so much pride in arrogantly forcing down our throats.
I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
Of the few places like Singapore that are being held up as having done brilliantly are their social structures, geography and culture comparable to the U.K.?
Sweden didn’t seem to do a lockdown like here, have they suffered as badly and if not why was the late lockdown here to blame for so many deaths?
There are in all likelihood scores of countries that have done far far worse than the U.K. that we don’t even know about yet.
U.K. has significant obesity that’s a massive factor in Covid deaths. Is that Boris Johnson’s fault?
I’m not saying we did perfect or even great, or justifying poor decisions but I haven’t read anything that makes me think we’re anywhere near being able to compare ourselves to other countries or analyse the entire response yet.
It’s one thing to criticise a decision with benefit of hindsight but without knowing the reasoning or basis that fed into that decision making, which I don’t believe are known at the moment, it’s meaningless.
For example, sending elderly people home from Hospitals to care homes, in hindsight poor decision and done badly and caused lots of deaths. Probably a harder decision to make at the time when trying to forecast demand for hospital space. Doubt there was much of a clear consensus from the advisors at the time. At best an informed guess about outcomes. At some point someone has a tough call to make. I doubt it was done flippantly and if it was then the person making that call deserves to be castigates but that’s what I don’t believe is presently known.
I actually don’t have an opinion one way or the other at the moment and wonder what the basis is for the incredibly strong opinions I read on here are and how sound it is.
Vanden Saab said:
If you think the pandemic is now over and the virus will disappear or a vaccine is just around the corner then I would agree with your supposition. Personally I think the opposite and those countries that suppressed the virus have just set themselves up for a whole world of pain later in the year when winter comes. IMHO it is far too early to call game over and decide we have done all the wrong things. Time will tell in the long run.
Just as a reminder the youngest of the four Coronaviruses that make up a subset of the common cold is thought to have emerged in 1890. If you had sealed yourself off waiting for that one to die out you would currently be on year 130. JagLover said:
Perhaps you could cite these experts. As we went into lockdown when the SAGE committee recommended we did.
The tens of thousands of deaths were primarily among the very elderly and vulnerable so that is an entirely separate issue to lockdown in my view. What mattered in saving their lives was preventing it spreading in hospitals and care homes. the government could clearly have done far better on the latter but that is an entirely separate issue to saying all would have been well if the healthy population were locked down earlier.
We are not NZ. We are an international hub and cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world until a vaccine is found. It looks like the HI threshold was overestimated and so London is close. Just waiting for the rest of the country to catch up.
Coronavirus: 'Earlier lockdown would have halved death toll' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-5299506The tens of thousands of deaths were primarily among the very elderly and vulnerable so that is an entirely separate issue to lockdown in my view. What mattered in saving their lives was preventing it spreading in hospitals and care homes. the government could clearly have done far better on the latter but that is an entirely separate issue to saying all would have been well if the healthy population were locked down earlier.
We are not NZ. We are an international hub and cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world until a vaccine is found. It looks like the HI threshold was overestimated and so London is close. Just waiting for the rest of the country to catch up.
“ The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK would have been halved if lockdown had been introduced a week earlier, a former government adviser has said.
Prof Neil Ferguson, whose advice was crucial to the decision to go into lockdown, said the outbreak had been doubling in size every three or four days before measures had been taken.
The prime minister said it was still too early to make such a judgement.
"We will have to look back on all of it and learn the lessons that we can."
Boris Johnson added: "A lot of these things are still premature. This epidemic has a long way to go."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/earlie...
“ Three-quarters of coronavirus deaths in Britain might have been avoided if the lockdown had begun a week earlier, modelling suggests.
Researchers said that if the UK had imposed the measures seven days earlier its death toll now would be on a par with the 8,000 in Germany.
They also said it would have been possible to have a shorter and less economically damaging lockdown.
Britain introduced its lockdown measures on March 23, when 359 deaths had been reported. Germany took such steps on the same day, but had reported only 86 fatalities at that time.
The UK's death toll has now exceeded 35,000 people.
Modelling from British scientist James Annan suggests that entering lockdown a week earlier would have reduced the number of deaths by three-quarters....‘
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8310667/I...
“Rowland Kao, professor of epidemiology and lead author of the paper, said there had 'definitely' been enough information about the coming pandemic in mid-February.
He demanded to know why lockdown was not imposed sooner, saying he hoped the country was 'following the right science'.
“Professor Kao told MailOnline that if the whole of Britain was forced to stay at home a fortnight earlier it would have a 'similar' effect on the death toll.
Applying the 80 per cent reduction to Britain's 32,490 fatalities suggests almost 26,000 deaths could have been prevented. “
Vanden Saab said:
El stovey said:
Perhaps as an alternative to the negative narrative towards the UKs pandemic decisions, you could tell us what Boris and the government did well regarding the handling of the pandemic?
I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
If you think the pandemic is now over and the virus will disappear or a vaccine is just around the corner then I would agree with your supposition. Personally I think the opposite and those countries that suppressed the virus have just set themselves up for a whole world of pain later in the year when winter comes. IMHO it is far too early to call game over and decide we have done all the wrong things. Time will tell in the long run.I don’t see or read anyone holding the U.K. up as an example of success regarding the pandemic, in fact it’s the complete opposite.
It’s hardly just iforb saying the U.K. has done badly. It’s not exactly a controversial statement to make looking at the decisions made and the resulting high death counts because of them.
Most experts now acknowledge that the late lockdowns cost tens of thousands of extra deaths. The care home protection was woefully inadequate, we had infected people arriving from China and Italy well into the pandemic all over the U.K. the decision to stop testing and contact tracing.
I’m struggling to see how the U.K. could have actually done any worse.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Incidentally as much as I'll make some allowances for not being able to get a haircut in the current climate that is our fking Prime Minister.
Johnson has gone full Worzel Gummidge with his barnet.king Prime Minister.Most of the other MPs have managed to look presentable during the pandemic.
Maybe it's just another sign of Johnson's alleged laziness. He looks like a complete bag of s
te. El stovey said:
Coronavirus: 'Earlier lockdown would have halved death toll' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-5299506
“ The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK would have been halved if lockdown had been introduced a week earlier, a former government adviser has said.
Prof Neil Ferguson, whose advice was crucial to the decision to go into lockdown, said the outbreak had been doubling in size every three or four days before measures had been taken.
The rest of those you cite might well be credible sources but Neil Ferguson, seriously?. The guy whose model was found out to be completely broken and who is also a lockdown zealot based mainly on the fact that his model cannot handle anything in-between full lockdown and business as usual. “ The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK would have been halved if lockdown had been introduced a week earlier, a former government adviser has said.
Prof Neil Ferguson, whose advice was crucial to the decision to go into lockdown, said the outbreak had been doubling in size every three or four days before measures had been taken.
He is trying to regain some lost credibility by telling the media what they want to hear.
If anything positive emerges from this crisis it will be hopefully be a realisation of the limits of epidemiological modelling.
Halved the death toll over what time frame?. IT ISNT OVER
In London it looks to be almost there. HI was initially overestimated at 60%. This has been revised down with some study on how this virus behaves to 43%. Close to 20% of people have had it in London based on Serologic testing and there are thought to be a large group of people who recover without detectable anti-bodies. So London is probably basically there and if we had locked down two weeks earlier they might not be.
The rest of the country has often barely had it in places which is why we remain vulnerable to local flareups.
JagLover said:
The rest of those you cite might well be credible sources but Neil Ferguson, seriously?. The guy whose model was found out to be completely broken and who is also a lockdown zealot based mainly on the fact that his model cannot handle anything in-between full lockdown and business as usual.
He is trying to regain some lost credibility by telling the media what they want to hear.
If anything positive emerges from this crisis it will be hopefully be a realisation of the limits of epidemiological modelling.
Halved the death toll over what time frame?. IT ISNT OVER
In London it looks to be almost there. HI was initially overestimated at 60%. This has been revised down with some study on how this virus behaves to 43%. Close to 20% of people have had it in London based on Serologic testing and there are thought to be a large group of people who recover without detectable anti-bodies. So London is probably basically there and if we had locked down two weeks earlier they might not be.
The rest of the country has often barely had it in places which is why we remain vulnerable to local flareups.
IT ISNT OVER. (works both ways doesn't it?)He is trying to regain some lost credibility by telling the media what they want to hear.
If anything positive emerges from this crisis it will be hopefully be a realisation of the limits of epidemiological modelling.
Halved the death toll over what time frame?. IT ISNT OVER
In London it looks to be almost there. HI was initially overestimated at 60%. This has been revised down with some study on how this virus behaves to 43%. Close to 20% of people have had it in London based on Serologic testing and there are thought to be a large group of people who recover without detectable anti-bodies. So London is probably basically there and if we had locked down two weeks earlier they might not be.
The rest of the country has often barely had it in places which is why we remain vulnerable to local flareups.
Unknown_User said:
IT ISNT OVER. (works both ways doesn't it?)
If you and others can actually bring yourself to admit that, rather than conveniently forgetting when there are points to be scored, that would be a start.Then it would indeed work both ways.
Edited by Tuna on Saturday 4th July 11:27
don'tbesilly said:
It didn't take long, and this is just one example:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
From your articlehttps://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
Not sure they’re looking at the U.K. and thinking they wished they’d followed us.
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