Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)
Discussion
catweasle said:
Given my OH's hospital, as I have stated before, is 80%+ BAME this is reflected in the focus groups as well but there is no getting away from the fact that, even at her hospital, BAME are under-represented in senior roles but I don't see how it can be due to racism.............Cue the abusers.
Expecting equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity is problematic for an employer that does not have control of the educational and social environment of it's workforce except for those precious few hours when they're actually at work.We've seen the same in our industry with gender bias. There are enormous benefits to having a gender balanced workforce, for which we will welcome female applicants - but if none are coming through the system with the appropriate qualifications then we cannot employ them. There are some well supported diversity outreach programmes that set out to 'drag people in off the streets', but it is a persistent problem.
And whilst you can identify areas of bias within workplaces that will put off a certain proportion of job seekers, they don't account for the disproportionately low number of people who do apply for these well paid, high reward jobs. Which leads to the problematic conclusion that certain demographics - for some combination of social environment, upbringing, education, career expectations, family background and probably a dozen other factors - have a statistically poorer fit with particular careers.
That said, we can, and must do better - but I tend to feel it should be the responsibility of the entire workforce, not farmed out as a separate function that somehow has to work in parallel to existing work areas.
Tuna said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Remember though he takes full responsibility for everything his government has been doing in tackling coronavirus and is very proud of their record.
84% of care homes are privately owned - it's going to be interesting to see how inspections and legal requirements change after the coronavirus. Expect the cost of elderly care to rocket.bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Well his comments on care homes have gone down very well.
No10 back pedalling this am. BBC breakfast and Radio 4. People interviewed seemed extremely annoyed at Bojo.Johnson said:
One of the things the crisis has shown is we need to think about how we organise our social care package better and how we make sure we look after people better who are in social care.
Johnson said:
We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time.
Remember though he takes full responsibility for everything his government has been doing in tackling coronavirus and is very proud of their record.Project re write history is something I hear a lot these days.
Zirconia said:
No10 back pedalling this am. BBC breakfast and Radio 4. People interviewed seemed extremely annoyed at Bojo.
Project re write history is something I hear a lot these days.
The CEO of the care charity had it about right when he used the word ‘Kafkaesque’ to describe the response, it’s a characteristic of this particular cabal. Set the rules, people follow them and when they don’t like the results, blame the people who have tried their best for not following the rules. Rinse and repeat. Project re write history is something I hear a lot these days.
Sway said:
Yet I think what he said is bang on - especially when he was clear there should be more government support.
However, it must be recognised that care homes by definition contain highly medically vulnerable people, irrespective of a pandemic.
They have the capability to fairly easily completely isolate the residents, with full sanitation for staff and items moving between rooms.
The vast majority are private run.
They require high levels of training and certification.
Yes, asymptomatic transmission was poorly understood, but I cannot help but think that care homes could and indeed should have done better.
Many care homes have had their staff many of whom are on minimum wage living in them for 12-16 weeks which is above and beyond IMO.However, it must be recognised that care homes by definition contain highly medically vulnerable people, irrespective of a pandemic.
They have the capability to fairly easily completely isolate the residents, with full sanitation for staff and items moving between rooms.
The vast majority are private run.
They require high levels of training and certification.
Yes, asymptomatic transmission was poorly understood, but I cannot help but think that care homes could and indeed should have done better.
I'm afraid anything I say will be seen simply as "Boris knocking" but his comments seem like a particular kick in the teeth.
I wonder what part of the procedures Boris doesn't feel they followed that resulted in such a high death toll?
Possibly hence the narrative shifting to "what the Prime Minister really meant was...".
Very difficult to disagree with Mark Adams.
Mark Adams CEO of charity Community Integrated Care said:
But to be honest with you, if this is genuinely his view, I think we're almost entering a Kafkaesque alternative reality where the government sets the rules, we follow them, they don't like the results, they then deny setting the rules and blame the people that were trying to do their best.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Many care homes have had their staff many of whom are on minimum wage living in them for 12-16 weeks which is above and beyond IMO.
How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
JagLover said:
How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?
Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
Which leads to a pretty simple question.
Which procedures?
If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.
If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.
Blue62 said:
Zirconia said:
No10 back pedalling this am. BBC breakfast and Radio 4. People interviewed seemed extremely annoyed at Bojo.
Project re write history is something I hear a lot these days.
The CEO of the care charity had it about right when he used the word ‘Kafkaesque’ to describe the response, it’s a characteristic of this particular cabal. Set the rules, people follow them and when they don’t like the results, blame the people who have tried their best for not following the rules. Rinse and repeat. Project re write history is something I hear a lot these days.
I think Mark Adams, the CEO of charity Community Integrated Care words are spot on.
JagLover said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Many care homes have had their staff many of whom are on minimum wage living in them for 12-16 weeks which is above and beyond IMO.
How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
Waiting years to point out Boris’s obvious failings and have him try to avoid scrutiny and responsibility is indeed not going to help anyone or change anything.
It’s like being 4-0 down at half time and in the dressing room saying, no need to talk about tactics, there’ll be plenty of time to look into what’s going wrong in a few months.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:JagLover said:
How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?
Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.
I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.
Which leads to a pretty simple question.
Which procedures?
If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.
If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.
It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
Sway said:
The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
Yes and hopefully a silver lining will be the emergence of far better pandemic planning and the bodies put in place that can deliver it effectively.We likely wont get that though if those who wish to politicise this crisis get their way. There are no lessons to be learned apparently all that matters is getting rid of Boris.
Sway said:
Isolation.
It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
Johnson was blaming yesterday. His own words (LBC interview is out there), not the press, they just played it back. No10 were running re write this am. This has happened quite a few times now, the narrative has been changed, it is done in PMQ (and fact checked later and found fibbing going on) and it has happened at the stand up pressers.It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
They have qualified their actions from day one, taken ownership. They have locked themselves in to this and won't let go.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".
Which leads to a pretty simple question.
Which procedures?
If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.
If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.
Its the old business where the government are trying to say they didn’t tell the care homes to not test people and blame PHE for everything. Which leads to a pretty simple question.
Which procedures?
If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.
If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.
It’s to be expected. Boris “isn’t a details man” and he’s dishonest and avoids scrutiny. Great for jingoism and making motivational speeches but not so good in a crisis, or when you need to learn from your mistakes.
Turns out having a leader who is good at managing stuff and good in a crisis is important after all.
Pretty shameful behaviour from Boris trying to blame care homes. Looks like they’re very unhappy being blamed by Boris and rightly not going to take it.
“They also demanded clarity on which rules they were being accused of breaking, saying that homes had been issued with more than 100 guidance updates in the space of as many days during the crisis. “
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/06/boris-...
I wonder who he and Cummings are going to blame for the late lockdowns. Stopping testing and contact tracing, poor communication and many other mistakes made.
Hopefully he won’t be trying to take credit for anything that goes well now.
Hancock said the government had built a protective ring around care homes. Which it turns out didn’t exist but now it’s all the carehomes fault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-u...
Zirconia said:
Sway said:
Isolation.
It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
Johnson was blaming yesterday. His own words (LBC interview is out there), not the press, they just played it back. No10 were running re write this am. This has happened quite a few times now, the narrative has been changed, it is done in PMQ (and fact checked later and found fibbing going on) and it has happened at the stand up pressers.It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
They have qualified their actions from day one, taken ownership. They have locked themselves in to this and won't let go.
I do note that the solutions to the issue he raised were all on government, not care homes.
Sway said:
Isolation.
It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
This is how I took it that he meant as well, many care homes have had no outbreaks of Covid so let us look at what they did and how they did it and pass that infomation on to all and ensure they follow the same regime so no further outbreaks happen. It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
It is worth reposting this from March 16th...
Care home professional.com said:
Care home providers have come under criticism for blanket restrictions placed on visits by families and friends in a bid to protect residents from the coronavirus
Reacting to the moves, Judy Downey, the chair of the Relatives and Residents Association, told The Guardian: “We have tin-pot dictators telling people that they can’t visit their parents and partners based on something they have half-heard.
“Residents can get very distressed if their relatives stop visiting. If you had the choice, at the end of your life, between not seeing your children or dying more quickly, which would you choose? I’d choose the latter
But yeah it is all the Gov. fault...Reacting to the moves, Judy Downey, the chair of the Relatives and Residents Association, told The Guardian: “We have tin-pot dictators telling people that they can’t visit their parents and partners based on something they have half-heard.
“Residents can get very distressed if their relatives stop visiting. If you had the choice, at the end of your life, between not seeing your children or dying more quickly, which would you choose? I’d choose the latter
JagLover said:
Yes and hopefully a silver lining will be the emergence of far better pandemic planning and the bodies put in place that can deliver it effectively.
We likely wont get that though if those who wish to politicise this crisis get their way. There are no lessons to be learned apparently all that matters is getting rid of Boris.
There are definitely lessons to be learned right now and they’re already there to see, but unfortunately there definitely won’t be lessons learned if the guy in charge is dishonest and keeps blaming everyone else and avoids accountability and scrutiny. We likely wont get that though if those who wish to politicise this crisis get their way. There are no lessons to be learned apparently all that matters is getting rid of Boris.
Like he’s already doing.
El stovey said:
Its the old business where the government are trying to say they didn’t tell the care homes to not test people and blame PHE for everything.
It’s to be expected. Boris “isn’t a details man” and he’s dishonest and avoids scrutiny. Great for jingoism and making motivational speeches but not so good in a crisis, or when you need to learn from your mistakes.
Turns out having a leader who is good at managing stuff and good in a crisis is important after all.
Pretty shameful behaviour from Boris trying to blame care homes. Looks like they’re very unhappy being blamed by Boris and rightly not going to take it.
“They also demanded clarity on which rules they were being accused of breaking, saying that homes had been issued with more than 100 guidance updates in the space of as many days during the crisis. “
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/06/boris-...
I wonder who he and Cummings are going to blame for the late lockdowns. Stopping testing and contact tracing, poor communication and many other mistakes made.
Hopefully he won’t be trying to take credit for anything that goes well now.
Hancock said the government had built a protective ring around care homes. Which it turns out didn’t exist but now it’s all the carehomes fault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-u...
Quite.It’s to be expected. Boris “isn’t a details man” and he’s dishonest and avoids scrutiny. Great for jingoism and making motivational speeches but not so good in a crisis, or when you need to learn from your mistakes.
Turns out having a leader who is good at managing stuff and good in a crisis is important after all.
Pretty shameful behaviour from Boris trying to blame care homes. Looks like they’re very unhappy being blamed by Boris and rightly not going to take it.
“They also demanded clarity on which rules they were being accused of breaking, saying that homes had been issued with more than 100 guidance updates in the space of as many days during the crisis. “
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/06/boris-...
I wonder who he and Cummings are going to blame for the late lockdowns. Stopping testing and contact tracing, poor communication and many other mistakes made.
Hopefully he won’t be trying to take credit for anything that goes well now.
Hancock said the government had built a protective ring around care homes. Which it turns out didn’t exist but now it’s all the carehomes fault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-u...
Boris may be entirely correct who knows?
I'm simply suggesting that if the most senior politician in the country is going to be quoted on national television as saying "too many care homes didn't really follow the procedures" it doesn't seem unreasonably to ask what procedures they didn't follow as you'd hope Boris has information to back that statement up.
I've absolutely not doubt some care homes will have acted badly.
But I'm not the Prime Minster making broad statements to the press and then rowing back from them when asked to back them up.
I do find it interesting that whenever Boris is asked about accepting any responsibility for what has happened the message is very much "now is not the time".
But apparently it is the time for him to lay some blame at the door of care homes.
f
k your tribal loyalty is that really the "brave" leadership people voted for?JagLover said:
Sway said:
The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
Yes and hopefully a silver lining will be the emergence of far better pandemic planning and the bodies put in place that can deliver it effectively.We likely wont get that though if those who wish to politicise this crisis get their way. There are no lessons to be learned apparently all that matters is getting rid of Boris.
Notwithstanding the fact that it’s becoming even more clear that Cummins is running the show, Boris must take responsibility for his and his party’s ineptitude.
Even Sharma couldn't look into the camera when he was spinning the story this morning.
In all honesty, you’d need to be seriously dumb not to see this.
They’ll not get my vote again, whilst Johnson and Cummins are around.
Sway said:
Isolation.
It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
I see you have now become the resident expert on care home. No wonder all these major consulting firm wanted to recruit you. It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.
Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...
I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.
Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.
In the real world I spoke to 3 people who worked in care homes all before CV19. Most resident have some level of dementia they simple will not remain in their rooms and locking them in causes distress.
Staff levels mean they are dependant on most residents eating in the dinning room. There are simply not enough staff to deliver food and clear to all the residents in their rooms.
The idea care where in a position to deal with the virus is ludicrous. Pushing elderly patients with no testing out of hospital into care home was a major error.
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