Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)

[Sway]

bhstewie said:

Sway said:

There are thousands of care homes in the UK.

Johnson mentioned that "some" hadn't followed procedures. This isn't a stretch of the imagination.

There's also nothing there for any specific care home to claim opprobrium for being blamed for anything.

He said that "too many" care homes didn't really follow the procedures.

That isn't the same as "some".

My apologies for the misquote.

So that could be as many as one care home not following procedures - and there's still no inference about why they didn't, except for the proposals relating to improved government funding and support, which heavily implies they see the issues being there (although I concede they're not falling in their swords exclaiming "it was all my fault").

[bitchstewie]

gooner1 said:

Behave stewie, too many does not mean all, ergo it follows that it means some.

If as someone has already stated that some did follow the procedures, they obviously didn’t mean all homes did.
Stop with the pedantics chap.

Sorry Gooner but "too many" has a very different meaning to "some" and Sway is clever enough to know that.

I'd have no issue with anyone saying "some" care homes weren't following procedures as that's probably true.

"too many" has a different tone to it.

And whether it's "too many" or "some" it isn't unreasonable to ask "which procedures?" when the Prime Minister states it.

[Tuna]

bhstewie said:

Sorry Gooner but "too many" has a very different meaning to "some" and Sway is clever enough to know that..

When we're talking about deaths, how many is too many?

[Escort3500]

El stovey said:

bhstewie said:

For our Prime Minister to act with a shred of respect and dignity.

For people to ask themselves "is this what I really voted for?" rather than clapping like seals "because team".

He stood at a podium and told us that everything Dominic Cummings did was right and gave an interview yesterday telling us what many of what the care homes did was wrong.

And all the while when questions have been asked of him or the Government "now is not the time".

Why do people on this thread keep making excuses for his behaviour?

Agreed.

I’d also like to see some indication that the government have recognised their mistakes, accepted responsibility and more importantly made changes to stop it continuing through the rest of the crisis and economic recovery.

Seeing Boris blame carehomes and continue to avoid scrutiny himself, doesn’t make it look like any lessons have been learned at all.

Edited by El stovey on Tuesday 7th July 12:22

Exactly. Johnson is a past master of buck passing, diverting scrutiny and promoting downright lies, and has continued this modus operandi throughout his tenure as PM.

[bitchstewie]

Tuna said:

bhstewie said:

Sorry Gooner but "too many" has a very different meaning to "some" and Sway is clever enough to know that..

When we're talking about deaths, how many is too many?

I have no idea but it suggests there is a number that is acceptable as you full well know.

I'd love to know how he gets you lot defending him.

Every fking time.

[JagLover]

Blue62 said:

Sway said:

Germany does stand out.

Spain had people found dead in their beds where they'd been left. Italy didn't exactly do great. Sweden had issues. Belgium too. As for the US...

In fact, the only nation that seemed to do well at protecting care home residents that wasn't in the far East seems to be Germany - who have themselves said that a big part of that was a ready made decentralised testing capability within the private sector.

Italy and Spain do not have our resources and were hit earlier than us. Those who consider comparisons erroneous are hiding behind the line our failed leaders have been peddling.

Both Italy and Span have highly regarded health care systems. It fact one international comparison website i've seen puts them second in the world, just behind France.

Not sure what resources we have that they dont?. Particularly as some European countries seem to have more of an internal PPE manufacturing capability, such as France.

and talking of resources Germany had over a hundred testing laboratories at the start of this crisis. They are one of the main bases of operations for Roche.

What this crisis actually revealed is how little resources we have to combat this threat. We didn't have sufficient internal testing capacity, nor do we have the ability to manufacture PPE in large quantities.

[amusingduck]

bhstewie said:

Tuna said:

bhstewie said:

Sorry Gooner but "too many" has a very different meaning to "some" and Sway is clever enough to know that..

When we're talking about deaths, how many is too many?

I have no idea but it suggests there is a number that is acceptable as you full well know.

I mean, zero is pretty acceptable

[bitchstewie]

amusingduck said:

I mean, zero is pretty acceptable

True and dead people are always funny aren't they.

[amusingduck]

bhstewie said:

amusingduck said:

I mean, zero is pretty acceptable

True and dead people are always funny aren't they.

Yes, that's what I was doing. Laughing at the dead.

[gooner1]

bhstewie said:

Thank you for an honest reply.

I would be interested in your gut reaction if in your union days management had gone on the record after an incident and stated "too many staff weren't following procedures" whether you'd think that a wise thing for them to have done.

I think that's a reasonable question for anyone to ask themselves.

Well this may surprise you but in the last 5 years of my union days, there was a concerted effort by management to move away
from the previous blame game regime. As a result workers workers were more inclined to accept responsibility for their actions
and both staff and management were therefore able to report incidents and discuss how said incidents could be prevented.

So in answer to your question IF and it’s a massive IF, management had stated that my gut reaction would be that there was possibly some truth in the statement.
Make no mistake, I was a right royal pita arse for all levels of management, but I also knew what my fellow workers could get up to. Sometimes we were our own worst enemies, and I include some Union reps in that verdict because of instant hostile reaction to almost anything management suggested.

[bitchstewie]

amusingduck said:

Yes, that's what I was doing. Laughing at the dead.

You're right and I apologise.

Dumb thing to say.

Me not you.

[Blue62]

JagLover said:

Both Italy and Span have highly regarded health care systems. It fact one international comparison website i've seen puts them second in the world, just behind France.

Not sure what resources we have that they dont?. Particularly as some European countries seem to have more of an internal PPE manufacturing capability, such as France.

and talking of resources Germany had over a hundred testing laboratories at the start of this crisis. They are one of the main bases of operations for Roche.

What this crisis actually revealed is how little resources we have to combat this threat. We didn't have sufficient internal testing capacity, nor do we have the ability to manufacture PPE in large quantities.

You’re keeping a straight face while spouting this stuff?

[Alucidnation]

It seemed perfectly clear to me what he was saying.

Was he wrong though?

[bitchstewie]

gooner1 said:

Well this may surprise you but in the last 5 years of my union days, there was a concerted effort by management to move away
from the previous blame game regime. As a result workers workers were more inclined to accept responsibility for their actions
and both staff and management were therefore able to report incidents and discuss how said incidents could be prevented.

So in answer to your question IF and it’s a massive IF, management had stated that my gut reaction would be that there was possibly some truth in the statement.
Make no mistake, I was a right royal pita arse for all levels of management, but I also knew what my fellow workers could get up to. Sometimes we were our own worst enemies, and I include some Union reps in that verdict because of instant hostile reaction to almost anything management suggested.

I think everything you've just said is entirely reasonable.

I'm sure some care homes won't have acted well.

Honestly though I'm absolutely baffled that people are defending the Prime Minister literally suggesting that "too many" of them have acted incorrectly whilst seemingly unable to cite a single thing they've done that's incorrect.

You mention above a "concerted effort by management to move away from the previous blame game regime" but the blame game is exactly what Johnson has just indulged in whilst at the same time suggesting it's far too early to ask any questions over his own performance or that of the Government.

I keep thinking I must be missing something as it seems so obvious

[JagLover]

Blue62 said:

JagLover said:

Both Italy and Span have highly regarded health care systems. It fact one international comparison website i've seen puts them second in the world, just behind France.

Not sure what resources we have that they dont?. Particularly as some European countries seem to have more of an internal PPE manufacturing capability, such as France.

and talking of resources Germany had over a hundred testing laboratories at the start of this crisis. They are one of the main bases of operations for Roche.

What this crisis actually revealed is how little resources we have to combat this threat. We didn't have sufficient internal testing capacity, nor do we have the ability to manufacture PPE in large quantities.

You’re keeping a straight face while spouting this stuff?

Is there something you specifically disagree with?

Are you one of those who loudly proclaim the NHS is the "envy of the world" while many other European countries have better healthcare systems than us.

You think we can run down our manufacturing base to the extent we have and not suffer consequences. Well here are the consequences. Globalisation relies on exporting British manufacturing and jobs and yet when the chips are down all you can rely on are resources and facilities located in your own countries.

[Stay in Bed Instead]

bhstewie said:

I have no idea but it suggests there is a number that is acceptable as you full well know.

I'd love to know how he gets you lot defending him.

Every fking time.

Have you learnt nothing from the Farage thread?

[gooner1]

bhstewie said:

gooner1 said:

Well this may surprise you but in the last 5 years of my union days, there was a concerted effort by management to move away
from the previous blame game regime. As a result workers workers were more inclined to accept responsibility for their actions
and both staff and management were therefore able to report incidents and discuss how said incidents could be prevented.

So in answer to your question IF and it’s a massive IF, management had stated that my gut reaction would be that there was possibly some truth in the statement.
Make no mistake, I was a right royal pita arse for all levels of management, but I also knew what my fellow workers could get up to. Sometimes we were our own worst enemies, and I include some Union reps in that verdict because of instant hostile reaction to almost anything management suggested.

I think everything you've just said is entirely reasonable.

I'm sure some care homes won't have acted well.

Honestly though I'm absolutely baffled that people are defending the Prime Minister literally suggesting that "too many" of them have acted incorrectly whilst seemingly unable to cite a single thing they've done that's incorrect.

You mention above an "effort by management to move away from the previous blame game regime" but that's exactly what Johnson has just done whilst at the same time suggesting it's far too early to ask questions over his own performance or that of the Government.

I keep thinking I must be missing something as it seems so obvious

Unable to cite a single thing they’ve done that’s incorrect, or acutely aware of media reaction if he did point out failings before
enquiry’s are rightly held?

[markyb_lcy]

Alucidnation said:

It seemed perfectly clear to me what he was saying.

Was he wrong though?

Whether he is wrong or right (and I don't think I'm well placed to say either way - how about you Alucidnation?), I think it was a particularly bad political move to say what he did and badly-timed too. There is an element of victim-blaming in it I believe.

The backlash has been exactly what I would expect, but appears to have wrong-footed Johnson and the govt who are now somewhat in my view climbing down from the comments.

Edited by markyb_lcy on Tuesday 7th July 13:52

[Derek Smith]

Tuna said:

Derek Smith said:

One test is to compare our response to that of other, similar countries.

A dangerous and misleading path to go down - diseases do not behave uniformly, nations are not constructed uniformly, and our situations are often anything other than uniform.

At the moment we have anecdotes, not data.

For some reason I thought I had posted "One test is to compare our response to that of other, similar countries. This isn't just a case of adding up deaths and dividing by the population.", but then, if I had, you would have quoted it, wouldn't you.

[s2art]

JagLover said:

.

What this crisis actually revealed is how little resources we have to combat this threat. We didn't have sufficient internal testing capacity, nor do we have the ability to manufacture PPE in large quantities.

WRT testing capacity I am not sure if this is true. Many private labs were volunteering their services and were baffled at the lack of response from PHE. Basically we could have done an operation Dynamo if PHE werent inclined to the 'not invented here' mindset.