Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)

[markyb_lcy]

Slagathore said:

markyb_lcy said:

Apologies to VS, I do think I may have got this wrong. I'd convinced myself I'd read a news report that statistics were being withheld, however upon searching for them, they do in fact exist...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-tes...

I'm not sure what happened there!

Genuine question - why didn't you look for them before you posted?

This is what boggles me a bit, you were happy to have a dig, but didn't even do any checking to see if what you were having a dig about was actually true?

It really proves the point that a few of us have been making that people are so desperate to be negative about the government, they don't actually check or verify anything before they post. Almost as in the desperation to make the point, the need to actually be correct gets bypassed.

At least, unlike others, you put your hand up and corrected it, which is partly why I'm hoping you won't take my question the wrong way. It's not intended to be rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

I guess I took what I thought I'd read at face value. So either I've confused myself, the article I've read was disingenuous, or the release of information regarding track and trace has changed. I'll let you know when I discover which one it is.

I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.

My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.

[Ridgemont]

Slagathore said:

markyb_lcy said:

Apologies to VS, I do think I may have got this wrong. I'd convinced myself I'd read a news report that statistics were being withheld, however upon searching for them, they do in fact exist...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-tes...

I'm not sure what happened there!

Genuine question - why didn't you look for them before you posted?

This is what boggles me a bit, you were happy to have a dig, but didn't even do any checking to see if what you were having a dig about was actually true?

It really proves the point that a few of us have been making that people are so desperate to be negative about the government, they don't actually check or verify anything before they post. Almost as in the desperation to make the point, the need to actually be correct gets bypassed.

At least, unlike others, you put your hand up and corrected it, which is partly why I'm hoping you won't take my question the wrong way. It's not intended to be rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

To be fair at least he owned it.

[Tuna]

IforB said:

When you did maths at school, did you often find the teachers telling you that 2+2 actually equals 4 rather than 638.2?

Some more work on your reading comprehension may not go amiss either, as you are completely missing what I have actually said.

Perhaps I misunderstood you when you said "the simple answer is..." as suggesting that there was a simple answer to what is clearly a complex and changing situation.

Perhaps you should work on your writing skills if what you meant was not what you wrote.

[markyb_lcy]

Ridgemont said:

To be fair at least he owned it.

I'm very far from perfect I make mistakes (most people do).

One thing I've learnt in life is that when you do make mistakes people will have much more respect for you in the longer-term if you own up than if you attempt to wriggle out of it.

[IforB]

s2art said:

IforB said:

s2art said:

IforB said:

I have said none of those things and I certainly have never suggested that the UK cannot survive without the EU. My opposition to Brexit is the narrow-minded mindset that suggests that the Human-race needs to pull apart into smaller groups to meet the challenges coming our way, rather than working together properly. Nationalism is a scourge and Brexit is foremost a nationailstic project that seeks to seperate us from others. That is why it is bad imo.

I think you are 180 degree out on this. Just because nations exist doesnt prevent cooperation. It was the USA and UK who cooperated to build the atom bomb and nuclear power for instance.



Here is a quote from Nick Ridley:

The secret of Europe when it was at its most innovative was that it was fragmented politically.


Its from https://nav.al/matt-ridley

And its worth reading.

Co-operation and team work always works better long term and whether "innovation" is better as an individual does not change the fact that there is more to it than just that. For example, my company is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. We can quickly switch our development ideas around and can move far, far faster than a corporate behemoth. However, this does not mean we are more successful.

We have global challenges such a biodiversity collapse, Pollution, Climate change, falling birth rates and sterility etc etc.that impact all of us whether we acknowledge them or not.

These things need a co-ordinated response. Your example of the atom bomb is an interesting one, as it shows the benefit to the US of working with allies to reach a common goal. Once the war was over, that partnership fundamentally fell apart and the UK was forced to give up much of it's technical leadership in many areas. We got screwed over fundamentally. Another example of that being the Miles M2 and the Bell X1 and the breaking of the sound barrier, or the Gas Turbine technology that was whipped away from RR.

On a fundamental level, we were the supplicant to a bigger player and lost out. As part of an organisation like the EU, we are part of the whole (and in the EU sense, one of the dominant members) and so were in a position to benefit from our developments and the developments of others as equal partners. We are now back in the supplicant position with sharks like the US and China about who will happily strip us bare for their own benefit.

What we have a problem with in the UK is the whitewashing of the realities of the British position throughout the years. We think of ourselves as too smart to get screwed over by bigger players, yet there are huge numbers of examples of this happening.they just get brushed off and the example you have given as a benefit of being solo is nothing of the sort in reality.

Stepping away from the EU is a terrible retrograde step that will haunt us for decades. History will be the judge of it eventually, but I suspect it will be categorised as one of the worst decisions a nation state has made about it's global position.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.We are in various multinational bodies for cooperative reasons, being not in the EU hasnt stopped that. Interestingly we may not have to wait for a long time to find out if leaving the EU was a good idea. I give it less than 5 years. And it will turn out to have been a damn good idea.

We will. I work with various individual nation states on the development of regulation and procedures around marine autonomy As individuals they all want to do something and are very conscious not to go down a path that conflics with what others are doing. The Governing body (International Maritime Organisation) is one of those bodies you mention as being formed for co-operative reasons. It is fundamentally a mess.

The issue with it isn't the number of people involved or how smart they are, but the way it is formed and lead. It is the old fashioned form of international co-operation that is riven with factionism, self-interest and delay.

So we created a new group for those interested flag states to join into and then we go en-masse as one to IMO and get things changed that way. It works more efficiently, but even then we have to deal with the morass that is the IMO.

When I see people slagging off the EU and suggesting it is too big and unwieldy, then I can only assume you are thinking about the sort of organisation like the IMO. It does good work, but fundamentally it is a barrier to progress.

The EU is not that. It has structure, controls and is fundamentally an organisation that is accountable in a way that other international bodies are not. It is a political structure not just a group to attempt co-operation. There is a fundamental difference between the EU and the UN for example.

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

The UK will be poorer in many ways outside and the EU will be poorer too. It is sad to see and even sadder to see the impact on future generations of Brits that will not enjoy the sort of freedoms we have grown used to.

I would mind if it could be proven it would be better for us, but not a single person has ever been able to convince me that there is any physical or real benefit to leaving and the "debate" arund it has bee so toxic and vile, that it has truly shredded much of our internal social cohesion too, with the very real prospect of Scotland leaving the Union and N.I likely to be treated differently to the rest of the UK because of it's physical proximity to the RoI.

It is just very, very sad.

[s2art]

IforB said:

s2art said:

IforB said:

s2art said:

IforB said:

I have said none of those things and I certainly have never suggested that the UK cannot survive without the EU. My opposition to Brexit is the narrow-minded mindset that suggests that the Human-race needs to pull apart into smaller groups to meet the challenges coming our way, rather than working together properly. Nationalism is a scourge and Brexit is foremost a nationailstic project that seeks to seperate us from others. That is why it is bad imo.

I think you are 180 degree out on this. Just because nations exist doesnt prevent cooperation. It was the USA and UK who cooperated to build the atom bomb and nuclear power for instance.



Here is a quote from Nick Ridley:

The secret of Europe when it was at its most innovative was that it was fragmented politically.


Its from https://nav.al/matt-ridley

And its worth reading.

Co-operation and team work always works better long term and whether "innovation" is better as an individual does not change the fact that there is more to it than just that. For example, my company is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. We can quickly switch our development ideas around and can move far, far faster than a corporate behemoth. However, this does not mean we are more successful.

We have global challenges such a biodiversity collapse, Pollution, Climate change, falling birth rates and sterility etc etc.that impact all of us whether we acknowledge them or not.

These things need a co-ordinated response. Your example of the atom bomb is an interesting one, as it shows the benefit to the US of working with allies to reach a common goal. Once the war was over, that partnership fundamentally fell apart and the UK was forced to give up much of it's technical leadership in many areas. We got screwed over fundamentally. Another example of that being the Miles M2 and the Bell X1 and the breaking of the sound barrier, or the Gas Turbine technology that was whipped away from RR.

On a fundamental level, we were the supplicant to a bigger player and lost out. As part of an organisation like the EU, we are part of the whole (and in the EU sense, one of the dominant members) and so were in a position to benefit from our developments and the developments of others as equal partners. We are now back in the supplicant position with sharks like the US and China about who will happily strip us bare for their own benefit.

What we have a problem with in the UK is the whitewashing of the realities of the British position throughout the years. We think of ourselves as too smart to get screwed over by bigger players, yet there are huge numbers of examples of this happening.they just get brushed off and the example you have given as a benefit of being solo is nothing of the sort in reality.

Stepping away from the EU is a terrible retrograde step that will haunt us for decades. History will be the judge of it eventually, but I suspect it will be categorised as one of the worst decisions a nation state has made about it's global position.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.We are in various multinational bodies for cooperative reasons, being not in the EU hasnt stopped that. Interestingly we may not have to wait for a long time to find out if leaving the EU was a good idea. I give it less than 5 years. And it will turn out to have been a damn good idea.

We will. I work with various individual nation states on the development of regulation and procedures around marine autonomy As individuals they all want to do something and are very conscious not to go down a path that conflics with what others are doing. The Governing body (International Maritime Organisation) is one of those bodies you mention as being formed for co-operative reasons. It is fundamentally a mess.

The issue with it isn't the number of people involved or how smart they are, but the way it is formed and lead. It is the old fashioned form of international co-operation that is riven with factionism, self-interest and delay.

So we created a new group for those interested flag states to join into and then we go en-masse as one to IMO and get things changed that way. It works more efficiently, but even then we have to deal with the morass that is the IMO.

When I see people slagging off the EU and suggesting it is too big and unwieldy, then I can only assume you are thinking about the sort of organisation like the IMO. It does good work, but fundamentally it is a barrier to progress.

The EU is not that. It has structure, controls and is fundamentally an organisation that is accountable in a way that other international bodies are not. It is a political structure not just a group to attempt co-operation. There is a fundamental difference between the EU and the UN for example.

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

The UK will be poorer in many ways outside and the EU will be poorer too. It is sad to see and even sadder to see the impact on future generations of Brits that will not enjoy the sort of freedoms we have grown used to.

I would mind if it could be proven it would be better for us, but not a single person has ever been able to convince me that there is any physical or real benefit to leaving and the "debate" arund it has bee so toxic and vile, that it has truly shredded much of our internal social cohesion too, with the very real prospect of Scotland leaving the Union and N.I likely to be treated differently to the rest of the UK because of it's physical proximity to the RoI.

It is just very, very sad.

And I worked for the European Commission for approx 8 years. I came away with a different opinion to yours.

[amusingduck]

markyb_lcy said:

One thing I've learnt in life is that when you do make mistakes people will have much more respect for you in the longer-term if you own up than if you attempt to wriggle out of it.

100%

[amusingduck]

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

[s2art]

amusingduck said:

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

And that it is NATO that ensured peace.

[amusingduck]

IforB said:

I would mind if it could be proven it would be better for us, but not a single person has ever been able to convince me that there is any physical or real benefit to leaving

We won't have to cough up for the EU CV bailout, just our own.

There's one real benefit of Brexit for you

[Fittster]

amusingduck said:

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

Were they in the EU?

[amusingduck]

Fittster said:

amusingduck said:

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

Were they in the EU?

Are they now? Yet the EU is involved. The E in EU is quite important

[markyb_lcy]

amusingduck said:

Fittster said:

amusingduck said:

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

Were they in the EU?

Are they now? Yet the EU is involved. The E in EU is quite important

Serbia are not, but they are working toward it.

The partially recognised independent state of Kosovo remains a sticking point.

[Derek Smith]

amusingduck said:

IforB said:

The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.

As long as you ignore the Kosovo war, of course

The history of the Balkans might suggest that things are peaceful and flourishing now compared to just about any time in modern history. It is a mess, it has always been a mess, and the only way to control it seemed to be by oppression. There is, it seems, a new way.

[bitchstewie]

Have I misunderstood or did Johnson crack a "joke" about Calvin Klein briefs when answering a question about concerns from the families of dead Coronavirus victims at todays PMQs?

[Vanden Saab]

markyb_lcy said:

Slagathore said:

markyb_lcy said:

Apologies to VS, I do think I may have got this wrong. I'd convinced myself I'd read a news report that statistics were being withheld, however upon searching for them, they do in fact exist...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-tes...

I'm not sure what happened there!

Genuine question - why didn't you look for them before you posted?

This is what boggles me a bit, you were happy to have a dig, but didn't even do any checking to see if what you were having a dig about was actually true?

It really proves the point that a few of us have been making that people are so desperate to be negative about the government, they don't actually check or verify anything before they post. Almost as in the desperation to make the point, the need to actually be correct gets bypassed.

At least, unlike others, you put your hand up and corrected it, which is partly why I'm hoping you won't take my question the wrong way. It's not intended to be rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

I guess I took what I thought I'd read at face value. So either I've confused myself, the article I've read was disingenuous, or the release of information regarding track and trace has changed. I'll let you know when I discover which one it is.

I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.

My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.

Do you have any details on the German system success that put our system to shame as I cannot find any details in order to compare it to the UK figures... I do know that South Korea use cell phone data to trace possible contacts. Are you happy for our Gov. to track and contact thousands of people using cell tower data because they have been with in a few metres of somebody with the virus?

[dai1983]

Took my son to the barbers on Saturday who used his world beating pen and paper to take our names and a telephone number that he has to keep for 4 weeks.

[bitchstewie]

dai1983 said:

Took my son to the barbers on Saturday who used his world beating pen and paper to take our names and a telephone number that he has to keep for 4 weeks.

"world beating".

It would be funny if it wasn't for the death toll.

[anonymous-user]

Vanden Saab said:

Are you happy for our Gov. to track and contact thousands of people using cell tower data because they have been with in a few metres of somebody with the virus?

Yeah wouldn’t you be happy with that?

[bitchstewie]

El stovey said:

Yeah wouldn’t you be happy with that?

They're stealing our personal freedoms....