Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)
Discussion
Vanden Saab said:
Do you have any details on the German system success that put our system to shame as I cannot find any details in order to compare it to the UK figures... I do know that South Korea use cell phone data to trace possible contacts. Are you happy for our Gov. to track and contact thousands of people using cell tower data because they have been with in a few metres of somebody with the virus?
I think the German infection and death numbers speak for themselves but I can’t say I have to hand any stats regarding their track and trace. Seems to me that the greatest success of the Germans was their ability to act quickly whilst I feel we were slow footed.You’re right to point out the civil liberty cost of the South Korean system. I would not personally be happy with being tracked in that way, however to a degree, we already are.
I think the app that was going to be such a prominent feature of the uk track and trace was a good idea, although it was executed badly and now appears to be completely dropped.
I’m undecided as to whether I’d install such an app. I think I’d avoid a centralised system however I’d be more included to install the decentralised app that Apple and google specifically developed an api for.
El stovey said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:El stovey said:
Yeah wouldn’t you be happy with that?
They're stealing our personal freedoms.... Some of us are opposed to mask wearing in shops because the timing and therefore the proportionality is completely wrong, not just because it’s “an infringement on our liberties”.
Is it possible you’re taking arguments used by Americans in the US and then using them as a straw man to generalise the whole of the opposition to this policy by those of us in the uk?
El stovey said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:El stovey said:
Yeah wouldn’t you be happy with that?
They're stealing our personal freedoms.... Back to Boris.
Boris Johnson indicates at PMQs he has not read winter coronavirus report
“aware” is an interesting choice of words over something that at face value feels quite significant.
I recall a story that Jack Straw would apparently have his aide read him the mornings political stories in the car when he was touring the radio and TV shows.
It meant that he could say he "hadn't read" a story if asked whilst technically being entirely truthful.
markyb_lcy said:
Not necessarily.
Some of us are opposed to mask wearing in shops because the timing and therefore the proportionality is completely wrong, not just because it’s “an infringement on our liberties”.
Is it possible you’re taking arguments used by Americans in the US and then using them as a straw man to generalise the whole of the opposition to this policy by those of us in the uk?
Sounds like you are against mask wearing because you think it’s an infringement on your civil liberties as part of the reason though?Some of us are opposed to mask wearing in shops because the timing and therefore the proportionality is completely wrong, not just because it’s “an infringement on our liberties”.
Is it possible you’re taking arguments used by Americans in the US and then using them as a straw man to generalise the whole of the opposition to this policy by those of us in the uk?
greygoose said:
Zirconia said:
Grayling didn't make it to the ISC chair? Could get interesting.
Surprised me.
Bit of a surprise, good news for that committee though as failing Grayling would have messed it up.Surprised me.
Zirconia said:
Committee is a 5-4 Tory majority. Honestly thought the buffoon was a shoe in. The other side all voted for Julian Lewis?
Seems they stitched him up."they" including his own colleagues
Chris Grayling fails to become intelligence and security chair
El stovey said:
markyb_lcy said:
Not necessarily.
Some of us are opposed to mask wearing in shops because the timing and therefore the proportionality is completely wrong, not just because it’s “an infringement on our liberties”.
Is it possible you’re taking arguments used by Americans in the US and then using them as a straw man to generalise the whole of the opposition to this policy by those of us in the uk?
Sounds like you are against mask wearing because you think it’s an infringement on your civil liberties as part of the reason though?Some of us are opposed to mask wearing in shops because the timing and therefore the proportionality is completely wrong, not just because it’s “an infringement on our liberties”.
Is it possible you’re taking arguments used by Americans in the US and then using them as a straw man to generalise the whole of the opposition to this policy by those of us in the uk?
I’m protective about my civil liberties but I’m prepared to give them up temporarily for reasons that are justified, evidenced and proportionate.
Don’t make the mistake of assuming that everyone who is against masks is against them for the exact makeup of reasons that I am or indeed that all the reasoning of “the other side” of the debate is uniform.
IforB said:
Zirconia said:
Grayling didn't make it to the ISC chair? Could get interesting.
Surprised me.
Failing Grayling fails yet again...Surprised me.
The man is a fart in human form, but this is quite a poke in the eye for Johnson really.
A failure of intelligence, in both senses
nicked from twitter
s2art said:
IforB said:
s2art said:
IforB said:
s2art said:
IforB said:
I have said none of those things and I certainly have never suggested that the UK cannot survive without the EU. My opposition to Brexit is the narrow-minded mindset that suggests that the Human-race needs to pull apart into smaller groups to meet the challenges coming our way, rather than working together properly. Nationalism is a scourge and Brexit is foremost a nationailstic project that seeks to seperate us from others. That is why it is bad imo.
I think you are 180 degree out on this. Just because nations exist doesnt prevent cooperation. It was the USA and UK who cooperated to build the atom bomb and nuclear power for instance.Here is a quote from Nick Ridley:
The secret of Europe when it was at its most innovative was that it was fragmented politically.
Its from https://nav.al/matt-ridley
And its worth reading.
We have global challenges such a biodiversity collapse, Pollution, Climate change, falling birth rates and sterility etc etc.that impact all of us whether we acknowledge them or not.
These things need a co-ordinated response. Your example of the atom bomb is an interesting one, as it shows the benefit to the US of working with allies to reach a common goal. Once the war was over, that partnership fundamentally fell apart and the UK was forced to give up much of it's technical leadership in many areas. We got screwed over fundamentally. Another example of that being the Miles M2 and the Bell X1 and the breaking of the sound barrier, or the Gas Turbine technology that was whipped away from RR.
On a fundamental level, we were the supplicant to a bigger player and lost out. As part of an organisation like the EU, we are part of the whole (and in the EU sense, one of the dominant members) and so were in a position to benefit from our developments and the developments of others as equal partners. We are now back in the supplicant position with sharks like the US and China about who will happily strip us bare for their own benefit.
What we have a problem with in the UK is the whitewashing of the realities of the British position throughout the years. We think of ourselves as too smart to get screwed over by bigger players, yet there are huge numbers of examples of this happening.they just get brushed off and the example you have given as a benefit of being solo is nothing of the sort in reality.
Stepping away from the EU is a terrible retrograde step that will haunt us for decades. History will be the judge of it eventually, but I suspect it will be categorised as one of the worst decisions a nation state has made about it's global position.
The issue with it isn't the number of people involved or how smart they are, but the way it is formed and lead. It is the old fashioned form of international co-operation that is riven with factionism, self-interest and delay.
So we created a new group for those interested flag states to join into and then we go en-masse as one to IMO and get things changed that way. It works more efficiently, but even then we have to deal with the morass that is the IMO.
When I see people slagging off the EU and suggesting it is too big and unwieldy, then I can only assume you are thinking about the sort of organisation like the IMO. It does good work, but fundamentally it is a barrier to progress.
The EU is not that. It has structure, controls and is fundamentally an organisation that is accountable in a way that other international bodies are not. It is a political structure not just a group to attempt co-operation. There is a fundamental difference between the EU and the UN for example.
The EU is very far from perfect, but it is the best attempt at bringing together a wide group of divergent nations and get them working together properly. There is much to criticise, but there is also much to admire. Not least the prosperity and peace that has flourished since it's inception.
The UK will be poorer in many ways outside and the EU will be poorer too. It is sad to see and even sadder to see the impact on future generations of Brits that will not enjoy the sort of freedoms we have grown used to.
I would mind if it could be proven it would be better for us, but not a single person has ever been able to convince me that there is any physical or real benefit to leaving and the "debate" arund it has bee so toxic and vile, that it has truly shredded much of our internal social cohesion too, with the very real prospect of Scotland leaving the Union and N.I likely to be treated differently to the rest of the UK because of it's physical proximity to the RoI.
It is just very, very sad.
For me that and working with EASA in it's current form utterly and totally validates the way we should work together. Each area looks after individual bits, but comes together as a whole to produce something bigger and better.
EASA has driven through some fundamental changes in how aviation is managed and from my perspective, it is far better and safer. Again, there are issues, but compared to dealing with the CAA alone, I much prefer it, even if dealing with a German certification engineer rather than one in Gatwick for major mods was sometimes a pain, once you worked with the system, it was much better.
I suppose we all have differing views based upon our experiences. Having been brought up in Westminster politics (my Mother was an advisor to numerous different cabinet ministers through the 70's and early 80's) then I grew up seeing how the UK political system is a very long way from being truly democratic and what I see of the EU and how it functions is far better and I dare say it, much more democratic, even if it feels less, as in theory we all have a smaller voice as part of a larger whole.
It is always interesting to hear from people with direct experience rather than the usual "I don't like Europe because the Mail/Sun/Telegraph told me they were bad" nonsense that we hear so often on here and other forms of social media, so I am genuinely interested in your take on it as someone who has been involved. Everyone else I know who has worked in the EC or EU is a committed Europhile and whilst realistic about what it is all about, they, like me consider Brexit to be nothing more than the UK committing self-harm for no good reason.
markyb_lcy said:
I guess I took what I thought I'd read at face value. So either I've confused myself, the article I've read was disingenuous, or the release of information regarding track and trace has changed. I'll let you know when I discover which one it is.
I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.
My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.
It was really just the confidence in which you stated it. Then when challenged, decided to check. I would have thought people would actually check before making the statement.I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.
My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.
I should have worded it better, I was trying to say that the fact that you came back and owned up to it meant I didn't think you were doing it out of desperation to be negative like the others, I was just genuinely was curious.
IforB said:
"I don't like Europe because the Mail/Sun/Telegraph told me they were bad" nonsense that we hear so often on here and other forms of social media
One man's "I don't like Europe because the Mail/Sun/Telegraph told me they were bad" is another man's "I worked in an incredibly niche capacity in a EU scope project and it worked so even though that was just my very limited experience, I'm still going to extrapolate that to the entire project along with all the economic, political and cultural implications, it can have no fault and anyone disagreeing with me is an ignorant moron"Slagathore said:
markyb_lcy said:
I guess I took what I thought I'd read at face value. So either I've confused myself, the article I've read was disingenuous, or the release of information regarding track and trace has changed. I'll let you know when I discover which one it is.
I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.
My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.
It was really just the confidence in which you stated it. Then when challenged, decided to check. I would have thought people would actually check before making the statement.I've got no problem with you asking the question but I don't like the insinuation that my not having checked first is because I'm desperate to be negative about the govt. They built this rod for their back when they were banging on about "world-beating" whilst Germany, S Korea and others were putting them to shame.
My lack of care taken is just that, and nothing to do with desperation.
I should have worded it better, I was trying to say that the fact that you came back and owned up to it meant I didn't think you were doing it out of desperation to be negative like the others, I was just genuinely was curious.
I should have checked first, you’re right, that’s fair cop.
valiant said:
IforB said:
Zirconia said:
Grayling didn't make it to the ISC chair? Could get interesting.
Surprised me.
Failing Grayling fails yet again...Surprised me.
The man is a fart in human form, but this is quite a poke in the eye for Johnson really.
A failure of intelligence, in both senses
nicked from twitter
jakesmith said:
IforB said:
I work with various individual nation states on the development of regulation and procedures around marine autonomy
As well as being an expert on aviation? Goodness.I have to say I have enjoyed my career so far. From spending 20 years in the cockpit flying some very cool machines and seeing the world, then ending up in airline management, through to being part of a team that created a true world first and then taking that knowledge into new fields such as software development and the development of the rules and regulations that apply to the cool tech that you helped into being. Some idiot has to do it.
It is funny where life takes you. Having spent two years fighting cancer in my late 20's, I am always amazed at what happens in life and where you can go with it despite the inevitable knocks. I suppose that is why I don't get riled by people like you Jake, I am perfectly comfortable in myself and very proud of what I have done so far, I am fortunate enough to have been tested and that allows you to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. I find that a very positive thing.
What happens next in life is always uncertain, for me, the lymphoma came back last year, so that still needs dealing with at some point (as I had so much treatment previously, then the kitchen sink approach won't work) but I know that we will just muddle our way through and look into every opportunity along the way as I normally do.
Working across various industries is great, you learn things from both and given the mess the aviation world is currently in, quite fortuitous.
Can I ask what you do, other than just argue with strangers on the Internet? I am quite comfortable talking about my personal and professional life in the context of a discussion, as I have nothing to hide there and relevant experience is always useful.
What experience are you bringing to the party that helps the discussion?
Edited by IforB on Wednesday 15th July 19:36
Vanden Saab said:
Apart from speculation in the press can you point to any actual evidence that grayling was the preferred choice for the position? As far as I can see the members are nominated by the various party leaders and the committee then vote for the chairperson...
His own party had a majority so could pretty much choose their own candidate.Short of Boris coming out and saying "Chris Grayling was my boy" I guess it's all press speculation but bloody hell it's not difficult to see what was supposed to happen and what did happen.
Grayling didn't even see it coming until he was told there was a second candidate according to The Times.
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