Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)
Discussion
JagLover said:
As I say it depends on the nature of the change.
I do not support simply tearing up the WA, regardless of how much the EU have not negotiated in good faith on a FTA subsequent to the signing of a WA that gave them most of what they wanted.
If there is indeed an urgent need to provide further detail and clarification and this is a technical breach for the UK government to do unilaterally, but unavoidable due to no agreement being reached, then that seems to me to both a minor technical issue and understandable.
As for the civil servant. Permanent secretaries are on fixed contracts (since 2014) that have to be renewed by the government. A dedicated remainer who (reading between the lines) may have been the source for the leak was unlikely to be reappointed. His "principled" stand seems to be saying that he will go when his contract runs out in April.
My thoughts exactly.I do not support simply tearing up the WA, regardless of how much the EU have not negotiated in good faith on a FTA subsequent to the signing of a WA that gave them most of what they wanted.
If there is indeed an urgent need to provide further detail and clarification and this is a technical breach for the UK government to do unilaterally, but unavoidable due to no agreement being reached, then that seems to me to both a minor technical issue and understandable.
As for the civil servant. Permanent secretaries are on fixed contracts (since 2014) that have to be renewed by the government. A dedicated remainer who (reading between the lines) may have been the source for the leak was unlikely to be reappointed. His "principled" stand seems to be saying that he will go when his contract runs out in April.
The Permanent Secretary's principles don't seem enough for him to leave immediately, if this is why he's going...
JPJPJP said:
Well the permanent secretary to the Government Legal Department has just resigned over the matter and a Secretary of State has just told the HoC that the government will break international law
I'd say that is a reasonably dramatic start to a Tuesday afternoon.
A permanent secretary is due to complete his fixed term contract next April, yet has randomly chosen today to announce that he will not be renewing next year? Hmmm...I'd say that is a reasonably dramatic start to a Tuesday afternoon.
markyb_lcy said:
If standing by the WA was something that for the UK Govt was going to be dependant on further treaties such as a FTA being agreed and signed, then we should not have agreed to the WA in the first place.
Is there not a legal way to extract ourselves from the obligations we have previously agreed to?
"Oven ready"
I think as others have noted, we need to see what the substance is and in context with the remainder of the WA.Is there not a legal way to extract ourselves from the obligations we have previously agreed to?
"Oven ready"
The first one noted in the link I posted earlier seems to be a technicality, so who cares.
The second seems something that personally I would see as legitimate for the EU to decide upon (ie what goods from rUK enter RoI without checks).
The third seems something reasonable for the UK to decide on (state aid).
If those three are the extent of it, you have a 1-1 draw.
The method of going about it isn't great. But then relations at present, especially on and around state aid, don't seem conducive to grown up discussion.
I guess we'll all see in the next few days.
Also worth bearing in mind that these in theory only come into play if there's no FTA (as both sides committed to negotiating in good faith). Sign a deal, this in theory goes away. And the deal is all but done, allegedly, save for some sidebar debate on fishing and a rather larger one on state aid controls (when the EU has no control of that within its own ranks!).
Tuna said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I wonder how many of them thought they'd be an apologist for that kind of thing 
They should take a leaf out of your book and refuse to discuss anything if anyone disagrees with them. Lockdown appears to have impacted him more than most.
Murph7355 said:
To be fair, bs does like a good apology/sad face these days on any topic he can find.
Lockdown appears to have impacted him more than most.
Lockdown has impacted lots of people in lots of ways Murph.Lockdown appears to have impacted him more than most.
Mental health tends to get overlooked especially by men.
Fortunately for me I've coped with lockdown very well but if I hadn't I'm not sure I'd appreciate someone taking the piss out of me for it to try to score a very cheap point.
This is fascinating to watch.
By my understanding we have
Unsurprisingly the same people who claimed we had no leverage in the negotiations are now complaining loudly that we're not playing nicely. Seeing as not one of them has had anything constructive to say about the negotiations, I'm unclear why we should pay any attention to them at all at this stage. There are only so many times you can claim the sky is falling in.
By my understanding we have
- Frost and co saying in public "Sovereignty is key, we want a deal, but it must meet our red lines. Otherwise we walk"
- Privately reported negotiations with Ireland to push for a deal over customs that might break the log jam
- Legislation being placed that will 'tidy up' ambiguity in the WA if the EU cannot compromise, and that (not subtly) tweaks their noses if they refuse.
Unsurprisingly the same people who claimed we had no leverage in the negotiations are now complaining loudly that we're not playing nicely. Seeing as not one of them has had anything constructive to say about the negotiations, I'm unclear why we should pay any attention to them at all at this stage. There are only so many times you can claim the sky is falling in.
Tuna said:
This is fascinating to watch.
By my understanding we have
Unsurprisingly the same people who claimed we had no leverage in the negotiations are now complaining loudly that we're not playing nicely. Seeing as not one of them has had anything constructive to say about the negotiations, I'm unclear why we should pay any attention to them at all at this stage. There are only so many times you can claim the sky is falling in.
The sky might not have fallen in, but we've hardly been building a summerhouse have we?By my understanding we have
- Frost and co saying in public "Sovereignty is key, we want a deal, but it must meet our red lines. Otherwise we walk"
- Privately reported negotiations with Ireland to push for a deal over customs that might break the log jam
- Legislation being placed that will 'tidy up' ambiguity in the WA if the EU cannot compromise, and that (not subtly) tweaks their noses if they refuse.
Unsurprisingly the same people who claimed we had no leverage in the negotiations are now complaining loudly that we're not playing nicely. Seeing as not one of them has had anything constructive to say about the negotiations, I'm unclear why we should pay any attention to them at all at this stage. There are only so many times you can claim the sky is falling in.
The negotiations have been in deadlock for months. perhaps nobody has been saying anything constructive because there's nothing constructive to say.
About the only positive thing I can think of is ... "at least this will be 'over' ('done') soon"
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Murph7355 said:
To be fair, bs does like a good apology/sad face these days on any topic he can find.
Lockdown appears to have impacted him more than most.
Lockdown has impacted lots of people in lots of ways Murph.Lockdown appears to have impacted him more than most.
Mental health tends to get overlooked especially by men.
Fortunately for me I've coped with lockdown very well but if I hadn't I'm not sure I'd appreciate someone taking the piss out of me for it to try to score a very cheap point.
No point scoring, just stating an opinion on the way you've morphed from being reasonably sensible/balanced to the anti-govt chicken licken in 6mths. Half the time you can't even be arsed to read up on what you post about. Just straight in with the "bloody govt should have done better. Not sure on what or how but they just should".
markyb_lcy said:
The negotiations have been in deadlock for months. perhaps nobody has been saying anything constructive because there's nothing constructive to say.
The deadlock was as predicted by a bunch of Leavers on here right at the start of the negotiations. It's only those who are against Brexit even happening who're acting surprised about this.Constructive things to say might have been about solutions to fishing, NI and the various other blockers in the negotiations, rather than just complaining that the UK was being unreasonable to ask for sovereignty in any form.
JPJPJP said:
How likely is it that these shenanigans with the EU or NI could lead to reunification of the island of Ireland?
This is a good an interesting question.Under the Good Friday Agreement my understanding is that a majority in both the ROI and NI would have to vote for it to happen.
My reading of the situation south of the border (and from speaking to my Mrs who is both Irish and a descendant of a famous Irish politician) is that although on the face of it there are a lot of people (probably a majority) who whilst they view a united Ireland as a favourable ideological endpoint they are concerned about the economic reality of such a move. Almost like they're happy to want it, until it becomes a realistic prospect. In any case, I think if it were put to a vote in ROI that a united Ireland would win (but support for it is, I believe, declining).
North of the border I suspect it's less likely to see a majority even with these changes. Views are quite entrenched in the older population.
Murph7355 said:
And there you go again
No point scoring, just stating an opinion on the way you've morphed from being reasonably sensible/balanced to the anti-govt chicken licken in 6mths. Half the time you can't even be arsed to read up on what you post about. Just straight in with the "bloody govt should have done better. Not sure on what or how but they just should".
Of course, if he was of the opposite view you'd be thinking he was a stand-up gentleman.No point scoring, just stating an opinion on the way you've morphed from being reasonably sensible/balanced to the anti-govt chicken licken in 6mths. Half the time you can't even be arsed to read up on what you post about. Just straight in with the "bloody govt should have done better. Not sure on what or how but they just should".
I'm quite impressed by how he puts up with the stuff from Tuna et al to be honest.
Tuna said:
markyb_lcy said:
The negotiations have been in deadlock for months. perhaps nobody has been saying anything constructive because there's nothing constructive to say.
The deadlock was as predicted by a bunch of Leavers on here right at the start of the negotiations. It's only those who are against Brexit even happening who're acting surprised about this.Constructive things to say might have been about solutions to fishing, NI and the various other blockers in the negotiations, rather than just complaining that the UK was being unreasonable to ask for sovereignty in any form.
I see the EU as being more powerful than us in these negotiations. If it comes down to what they want vs what we want, either they are going to come out of an agreement with more of what they want than us, or we are going to both walk away. The latter appears to be what will happen. At this point, I think that's probably for the best, and we can conduct future trade negotiations from a relatively "blank slate"
It was always going to be thus.
vonuber said:
Of course, if he was of the opposite view you'd be thinking he was a stand-up gentleman.
I'm quite impressed by how he puts up with the stuff from Tuna et al to be honest.
Do you not see the difference between a few years ago and now?I'm quite impressed by how he puts up with the stuff from Tuna et al to be honest.
Maybe I had the wrong idea all along, but IMV he's gone from being up there with the Lord Marylebones of our little community, heading down at impressive pace to the mx5nut tier posters. Nothing to do with opinion/viewpoint either, it's everything else.
I picked LM as an example as, from memory, their posts are pretty well thought out, made in good faith, and willing to engage.
markyb_lcy said:
or we are going to both walk away. The latter appears to be what will happen. At this point, I think that's probably for the best, and we can conduct future trade negotiations from a relatively "blank slate"
.
Yep, best outcome for me as well..
For me it has always seemed a great problem in negotiating an FTA that the EUs prime motivation had to be to demonstrate we are worse off by leaving. Any other FTA has been driven by economic considerations.
Leave, let the dust settle, and discuss things in a more constructive way in the future.
Murph7355 said:
And there you go again
No point scoring, just stating an opinion on the way you've morphed from being reasonably sensible/balanced to the anti-govt chicken licken in 6mths. Half the time you can't even be arsed to read up on what you post about. Just straight in with the "bloody govt should have done better. Not sure on what or how but they just should".
If I don't agree with something the Government does I'll say so.No point scoring, just stating an opinion on the way you've morphed from being reasonably sensible/balanced to the anti-govt chicken licken in 6mths. Half the time you can't even be arsed to read up on what you post about. Just straight in with the "bloody govt should have done better. Not sure on what or how but they just should".
If I do agree with something the Government does I'll say so too and oddly enough nobody seems to have an issue with that
I'd rather be called an "anti-govt chicken" than do Simon Biles level mental gymnastics to persuade myself that anything can be excused or waved away if Johnson does it or if it "gets Brexit done".
Like breaking international law but only in a "limited way" just to use todays example.
I've said before it really doesn't bother me what people think.
markyb_lcy said:
This is a good an interesting question.
Under the Good Friday Agreement my understanding is that a majority in both the ROI and NI would have to vote for it to happen.
My reading of the situation south of the border (and from speaking to my Mrs who is both Irish and a descendant of a famous Irish politician) is that although on the face of it there are a lot of people (probably a majority) who whilst they view a united Ireland as a favourable ideological endpoint they are concerned about the economic reality of such a move. Almost like they're happy to want it, until it becomes a realistic prospect. In any case, I think if it were put to a vote in ROI that a united Ireland would win (but support for it is, I believe, declining).
North of the border I suspect it's less likely to see a majority even with these changes. Views are quite entrenched in the older population.
Would / could the EU put some money up towards the reunification costs? Would that be enough to significantly influence the overall outcome of any vote on the matter in either part of the island?Under the Good Friday Agreement my understanding is that a majority in both the ROI and NI would have to vote for it to happen.
My reading of the situation south of the border (and from speaking to my Mrs who is both Irish and a descendant of a famous Irish politician) is that although on the face of it there are a lot of people (probably a majority) who whilst they view a united Ireland as a favourable ideological endpoint they are concerned about the economic reality of such a move. Almost like they're happy to want it, until it becomes a realistic prospect. In any case, I think if it were put to a vote in ROI that a united Ireland would win (but support for it is, I believe, declining).
North of the border I suspect it's less likely to see a majority even with these changes. Views are quite entrenched in the older population.
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