Statues and our tolerance of history
Discussion
2xChevrons said:
As with any statue, there was a broader motive behind it. It was funded by a small group of Bristol businessmen and society leaders who wanted to promote Colston as a model citizen that ticked all their own boxes - rich, merchant, Anglican, politically conservative, morally strict and civically minded. The initial attempt to fund the statue by public subscription dismally failed because most people in Bristol didn't care about him or his legacy.
Maybe the statue going has served him a favourhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Colston
wiki said:
His will stated that he wished to be buried simply without pomp, but this instruction was ignored
2xChevrons said:
Europa1 said:
Ah, whataboutism at its best. The Nazis burned a few books and destroyed a few statues to satisfy their preferred view of history - where do you draw the line?
Why not answer the question? I genuinely don't know why the statue was erected, but I know Bristol has a complex relationship with the slave trade, and I don't think simply removing statues because they offend the modern sensibilities of some is the way to go.
The statue was erected ostensibly to commemorate Colston's philanthropy. The inscription made no mention of the fact that his wealth that permitted this philanthropy came mainly from slave trading and trade in goods produced by slave labour. Also omitted was that his philanthropy was only available to those who met his strict moral, religious and political views. Why not answer the question? I genuinely don't know why the statue was erected, but I know Bristol has a complex relationship with the slave trade, and I don't think simply removing statues because they offend the modern sensibilities of some is the way to go.
As with any statue, there was a broader motive behind it. It was funded by a small group of Bristol businessmen and society leaders who wanted to promote Colston as a model citizen that ticked all their own boxes - rich, merchant, Anglican, politically conservative, morally strict and civically minded. The initial attempt to fund the statue by public subscription dismally failed because most people in Bristol didn't care about him or his legacy.
No doubt there are people going through this list... https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/
I remember watching an episode of Who do you think you are, which traced Ainsley Harriot's ancestors.
He got quite indignant when he thought that his ancestors were slaves and had to back down when it transpired that his family were selling slaves , IIRC.
Can we assume that he will be sacked by the BBC and all his books removed from the shelves?
Will the BBC Iplayer remove all episodes of Ready , Steady Cook?
He got quite indignant when he thought that his ancestors were slaves and had to back down when it transpired that his family were selling slaves , IIRC.
Can we assume that he will be sacked by the BBC and all his books removed from the shelves?
Will the BBC Iplayer remove all episodes of Ready , Steady Cook?
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
Anyone get the feeling that this more about disrupting the Brexit process?
...
As for the US, I firmly believe it’s all about destabilising Trump and stopping another Trump win.
Never go full tinfoil....
As for the US, I firmly believe it’s all about destabilising Trump and stopping another Trump win.
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
In both cases, the Pro EU and Pro Clinton media in the US and UK
(Nobody tell him that the Facebook sites he gets his opinions from are still fighting the last US election 
)Smokehead said:
jimothyc said:
Sidiq Khan in his infinite wisdom has decided to remove another.
https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/127040971...
The start of a very slippery slope.https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/127040971...
Who could have seen that coming?
2xChevrons said:
Black Boy Lane (like Black Boy Hill in Bristol) has nothing to do with slavery or African people, despite persistent local legends to the contrary. They, and a number of pubs around the country (in fact the roads usually take their name from the pub) are named after Charles II, who was nicknamed 'The Black Boy', especially as a euphemism during the Commonwealth.
I've already said why I think the Coliseum is irrelevant to this issue - it's not inherently celebrating the bad things that went on in it, and those are properly included in information and education about it. It's not mostly known as 'a big gathering place for wealthy and philanthropic Roman citizens and politicians' while 'so they could watch blood sports' is left off the record.
While I totally accept that Black Boy Lane in Harringay, (as you say), has nothing to do with slavery, it’s dollars to doughnuts that the militant Black Lives Matter crowd see it as an affront to their heritage, and would be overjoyed if the name was changed.I've already said why I think the Coliseum is irrelevant to this issue - it's not inherently celebrating the bad things that went on in it, and those are properly included in information and education about it. It's not mostly known as 'a big gathering place for wealthy and philanthropic Roman citizens and politicians' while 'so they could watch blood sports' is left off the record.
Edited by 2xChevrons on Wednesday 10th June 00:15
It’s getting ridiculous.
I follow a drum and bass record label, bare in mind they’ve supported and released music from many black artists over the last 20 years.
The other day they posted saying they have failed to positively represent black artists, and will do better in future?!
What are they going to do? They can’t exactly force people to release music no matter what their colour!
Most of the comments are people asking what they actually appologising for as it makes no sense
I follow a drum and bass record label, bare in mind they’ve supported and released music from many black artists over the last 20 years.
The other day they posted saying they have failed to positively represent black artists, and will do better in future?!
What are they going to do? They can’t exactly force people to release music no matter what their colour!
Most of the comments are people asking what they actually appologising for as it makes no sense
Those who favour the removal of statues, would you like this to catch on?
https://twitter.com/latimes/status/127012167919336...
https://twitter.com/latimes/status/127012167919336...
Edited by winther on Wednesday 10th June 01:51
winther said:
Those who favour the removal of statues, would you like this to catch on?
https://twitter.com/latimes/status/127012167919336...
No.https://twitter.com/latimes/status/127012167919336...
Edited by winther on Wednesday 10th June 01:51
Although 'Gone With The Wind' romanticised the hell out of the antebellum South and the Confederacy, and is a big part of maintaining the dangerously false Lost Cause narrative.
It's also a historically important work of art and a compelling drama. It's not propaganda, even though it slaps the whitewash on pretty thick.
It's no more inaccurate as a historical work than, I dunno, James Cameron's 'Titanic', even if those inaccuracies offend rather more people.
It should carry a suitable rating and, ideally, people would have the education necessary to properly evaluate and understand it as a work of a particular time and place.
Crucially, though, no one is being forced to watch 'Gone With The Wind' against their will. If a city was playing it on a loop on a big screen in the town square then it would be right to stop it.
If I hear a convincing argument from the relevant people that having 'Gone With The Wind' freely available and bereft of context or critique is harming racial attitudes or making BAME people feel marginalised then I will change my opinion.
Edited by 2xChevrons on Wednesday 10th June 02:15
2xChevrons said:
No.
Although 'Gone With The Wind' romanticised the hell out of the antebellum South and the Confederacy, and is a big part of maintaining the dangerously false Lost Cause narrative.
It's also a historically important work of art and a compelling drama. It's not propaganda, even though it slaps the whitewash on pretty thick.
It's no more inaccurate as a historical work than, I dunno, James Cameron's 'Titanic', even if those inaccuracies offend rather more people.
It should carry a suitable rating and, ideally, people would have the education necessary to properly evaluate and understand it as a work of a particular time and place.
Crucially, though, no one is being forced to watch 'Gone With The Wind' against their will. If a city was playing it on a loop on a big screen in the town square then it would be right to stop it.
On point!Although 'Gone With The Wind' romanticised the hell out of the antebellum South and the Confederacy, and is a big part of maintaining the dangerously false Lost Cause narrative.
It's also a historically important work of art and a compelling drama. It's not propaganda, even though it slaps the whitewash on pretty thick.
It's no more inaccurate as a historical work than, I dunno, James Cameron's 'Titanic', even if those inaccuracies offend rather more people.
It should carry a suitable rating and, ideally, people would have the education necessary to properly evaluate and understand it as a work of a particular time and place.
Crucially, though, no one is being forced to watch 'Gone With The Wind' against their will. If a city was playing it on a loop on a big screen in the town square then it would be right to stop it.
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
The BBC knew what he was up to yet we still have to give them money under threat and no-one has pulled down their s
t? In fact, where was the mob outrage over that entire scandal?
This is all very selective and I bet the majority of black people in this country couldn’t give a fk about Colstons statue. It wouldn’t surprise me if they found BLM to be an utter embarrassment.
Anyone get the feeling that this more about disrupting the Brexit process? Where were these protest groups before the Referendum? Antifa, BLM and XR etc. Notice how after the referendum we had masses of “peaceful” protests by the People’s Vote et al and then Boris won the 2019 GE. Do we really believe that opposition to Brexit just walked away? Or has it now stepped up a gear and become violent protests but specifically aimed at destabilising the govt. via the activation of what the KGB called “the useful idiots”. I wonder if we would find the same names in organisations like the People’s Vote and BLM?
The chap who died in the US was merely a spark but note how the lockdown protests appeared to be kicking off before this particular spark from the US...which has been a lot bigger, a much better spark. More division, the better.
As for the US, I firmly believe it’s all about destabilising Trump and stopping another Trump win. Covid was the spark but the poor black guy who died has more or less become BLM’s Horst Wessel and they’re milking it for as much as they can get, a damned disgrace.
In both cases, the Pro EU and Pro Clinton media in the US and UK are lapping all of this up and to the point they’re more or less condoning violence, looting and lawlessness. How odd?
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a fk about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.
You should be worried.
Cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo.....t? In fact, where was the mob outrage over that entire scandal?This is all very selective and I bet the majority of black people in this country couldn’t give a f
k about Colstons statue. It wouldn’t surprise me if they found BLM to be an utter embarrassment.Anyone get the feeling that this more about disrupting the Brexit process? Where were these protest groups before the Referendum? Antifa, BLM and XR etc. Notice how after the referendum we had masses of “peaceful” protests by the People’s Vote et al and then Boris won the 2019 GE. Do we really believe that opposition to Brexit just walked away? Or has it now stepped up a gear and become violent protests but specifically aimed at destabilising the govt. via the activation of what the KGB called “the useful idiots”. I wonder if we would find the same names in organisations like the People’s Vote and BLM?
The chap who died in the US was merely a spark but note how the lockdown protests appeared to be kicking off before this particular spark from the US...which has been a lot bigger, a much better spark. More division, the better.
As for the US, I firmly believe it’s all about destabilising Trump and stopping another Trump win. Covid was the spark but the poor black guy who died has more or less become BLM’s Horst Wessel and they’re milking it for as much as they can get, a damned disgrace.
In both cases, the Pro EU and Pro Clinton media in the US and UK are lapping all of this up and to the point they’re more or less condoning violence, looting and lawlessness. How odd?
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a f
k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.You should be worried.
jimothyc said:
I think a better solution to the Colston statue would have been a companion statue. A statue of a black African slave staring him down and detailing how Colston's behaviour is now perceived in our modern society. That would have been a much more powerful symbol and would have preserved the history. It also wouldn't have required any input from the Merchant Venturers or whoever they are.
The equivalent of a modern preface in a classic book, or preserving a building so you're able to read the history of it.
What we have now is an empty plinth, a group of people with the illusion that they can destroy whatever they don't like and greater division in the local community.
This is the correct answer, IMHO. It would educate and at the same time add something morally powerful and artistic to the site.The equivalent of a modern preface in a classic book, or preserving a building so you're able to read the history of it.
What we have now is an empty plinth, a group of people with the illusion that they can destroy whatever they don't like and greater division in the local community.
Flumpo said:
To be fair he was pretty racist, it’s not new. African institutions have been taking his statues down for the last few years.
Has anyone pointed out Emily Pankhurst wasn’t campaigning for votes for non white women. It seems she had some non pc views on race too.
Where does the madness end.
Not just 'non-white women', AIUI. Working-class women were also not in her plan - only women who had some station/position/power, I believe.Has anyone pointed out Emily Pankhurst wasn’t campaigning for votes for non white women. It seems she had some non pc views on race too.
Where does the madness end.
What should happen to the bloke who said this’s statues?
“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white “
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
mx5nut said:
Jimmy Saville raised a few quid for charity. Would you like a statue of him in your town? Just as a celebration of the charity stuff, you understand.
The BBC knew what he was up to yet we still have to give them money under threat and no-one has pulled down their st? In fact, where was the mob outrage over that entire scandal?This is all very selective and I bet the majority of black people in this country couldn’t give a f
k about Colstons statue. It wouldn’t surprise me if they found BLM to be an utter embarrassment.Anyone get the feeling that this more about disrupting the Brexit process? Where were these protest groups before the Referendum? Antifa, BLM and XR etc. Notice how after the referendum we had masses of “peaceful” protests by the People’s Vote et al and then Boris won the 2019 GE. Do we really believe that opposition to Brexit just walked away? Or has it now stepped up a gear and become violent protests but specifically aimed at destabilising the govt. via the activation of what the KGB called “the useful idiots”. I wonder if we would find the same names in organisations like the People’s Vote and BLM?
The chap who died in the US was merely a spark but note how the lockdown protests appeared to be kicking off before this particular spark from the US...which has been a lot bigger, a much better spark. More division, the better.
As for the US, I firmly believe it’s all about destabilising Trump and stopping another Trump win. Covid was the spark but the poor black guy who died has more or less become BLM’s Horst Wessel and they’re milking it for as much as they can get, a damned disgrace.
In both cases, the Pro EU and Pro Clinton media in the US and UK are lapping all of this up and to the point they’re more or less condoning violence, looting and lawlessness. How odd?
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a f
k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.You should be worried.
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