Black Lives Matter - Who are they?

[Hugo a Gogo]

bstb3 said:

Gadgetmac said:

All statistics are open to interpretation but those that I quoted warranted a mention on a statistical website.

Now, if you don’t like the statistical websites finding that “the rate of fatal police shootings among Black Americans was much higher than that for any other ethnicity, standing at 31 fatal shootings per million of the population as of June 2020.” you need to explain why. You should also provide a link or two to support your argument.

As a statement of numerical fact, sure its fine. The problem is the basis of the comparison, per million population, is very misleading as it ignores the very heavy weighting effect of the Black and African American community being overly represented in crime statistics, particularly involving violence. Its just far too simplistic to be useful for much in its own right.

Stats from 2017 as a midpoint for the statista analysis you linked to:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in...


Population (Statista again, forgot to capture the link)


So per million, B&AA is 3,488 violent crimes, White 948. On the same very simplistic basis thats B&AA 3.5 times more likely to be committing a violent crime, versus (from your stats) approx 2.5 times as likely to be killed by police. If you want to make top level assumptions from very poor baselines you might argue that is not particularly disproportionate [and that 2.5 times is before factoring in Hispanic is potentially represented in white crimes in the FBI data so we should possibly be adding some of those deaths to the white ones].




And that last statement, as harsh and horrible as it is, is exactly why you cannot and should not use such basic divisors as 'per million' when talking about a very specific contextual issue such as police killings. Its not possible, from such a high level, to determine the real cause or patterns of what is happening.

Bad statistics are no better than no statistics imo, if not worse.

I've seen this type of argument before, isn't it possible that if indeed black people are disproportionately targets of police killings, they may well be equally, if not more so, disproportionate targets of arrests also? In fact it might be exactly as expected. Therefore the old 'they commit more crime' argument doesn't really make sense, unless you actually do believe there is some genetic element to crime, which is pretty much a definition of racism

[Sophisticated Sarah]

ntiz said:

Football is such an odd one to me because you can guarantee the same people more than happy to throw racism at a black player. Will be chanting there worship of a black player if he plays for there team.

It’s not a purely race motivated attack its hate of the other team, That leads to rascist attacks.

Either way it’s not okay just odd.

I find sport as a whole is strange in this regard. Awkward to word this, but I think it’s more often trying to get under the skin of an opposing player rather than seriously “I want to burn blacks/whites/Chinamen etc”.

Doesn’t excuse the abuse (and there are no doubt hateful tts out there who are serious) however I think it’s an attempt at agitating more than anything. We used to do it in rugby a lot but with comments such as “surprised you’re wearing those boots, bloody uncomfortable aren’t they?” / “why did your missus text me last night?” rather than the horrid stuff the 12 year old came out with.

[andymadmak]

Hugo a Gogo said:

I've seen this type of argument before, isn't it possible that if indeed black people are disproportionately targets of police killings, they may well be equally, if not more so, disproportionate targets of arrests also? In fact it might be exactly as expected.

I think the answer to that depends on the number of reported crimes. Are those crimes that are being reported (vs those not being reported) more or less likely to have been committed by a black person? The statistics ( lies and damn lies) seem to suggest that more violent crime is committed by black people, and since Police do seem to set a priority on catching violent criminals then a higher arrest rate would also go hand in hand. It's a hard one to judge though because the interweaving of factors and the complexities of cause and effect are lost in statistics.

Hugo a Gogo said:

Therefore the old 'they commit more crime' argument doesn't really make sense, unless you actually do believe there is some genetic element to crime, which is pretty much a definition of racism

You're making a pretty huge leap there Hugo! Why does it have to be genetic? A lot of things I have read have suggested that black communities are disproportionately poor, and that poverty is a significant factor behind gang culture, criminality, drugs etc.
It would be interesting to see criminality figures from similarly poor white communities, because I suspect that the outcomes are similar.

Mind you, I do remember in the 70s being told that to blame poverty for criminality was to discriminate unfairly against poor people and to be making baseless, prejudiced assumptions (I was brought up grindingly poor, myself).

[R Mutt]

Dont Panic said:

bhstewie said:

Oddly even for someone paid the amount of money he's paid he still has an issue with it.

Sent a photo of the KKK and told he would be visited by a "ghost".

Why do you think he might be a bit pissed at that?

I suppose this kid will now be subjected to the full force of twitterlaw, deplatformed, his family hounded out their house, their jobs, potential employers notified of his misdeed, his school expelling him, antifa daubing slogans anywhere he's seen, the news media camped outside, local shops refusing to admit him etc etc...Maybe not but id not be entirely surprised.

Even were I not a Palace fan I'd probably endorse Wilf or any other victim issuing a mild form of corporal punishment

I would imagine virtually none of the above will happen, and if there was some form of education and engagement instead I would consider that constructive and common sense, while others would call it woeful inaction on racism.

[Not-The-Messiah]

R Mutt said:

Dont Panic said:

bhstewie said:

Oddly even for someone paid the amount of money he's paid he still has an issue with it.

Sent a photo of the KKK and told he would be visited by a "ghost".

Why do you think he might be a bit pissed at that?

I suppose this kid will now be subjected to the full force of twitterlaw, deplatformed, his family hounded out their house, their jobs, potential employers notified of his misdeed, his school expelling him, antifa daubing slogans anywhere he's seen, the news media camped outside, local shops refusing to admit him etc etc...Maybe not but id not be entirely surprised.

Even were I not a Palace fan I'd probably endorse Wilf or any other victim issuing a mild form of corporal punishment

I would imagine virtually none of the above will happen, and if there was some form of education and engagement instead I would consider that constructive and common sense, while others would call it woeful inaction on racism.

Well the others who think it would be woeful inaction on racism who think child abuse is appropriate punishment for name calling are pathetic.
Racism in the form of nasty name calling is a stty thing to do but to me in the same league as calling someone names because they are fat, ugly, disabled or whatever. It defiantly comes well below physical child abuse.

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did said that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Monday 13th July 18:33

[bitchstewie]

Not-The-Messiah said:

Well the others who think it would be woeful inaction on racism who think child abuse is appropriate punishment for name calling are pathetic.
Racism in the form of nasty name calling is a stty thing to do but to me in the same league as calling someone names because they are fat, ugly, disabled or whatever. It defiantly comes well below physical child abuse.

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did say that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Dude we're not talking about someone accidentally using the word "coloured" instead of "black".

He allegedly literally sent him a photo of the KKK and the rest.

God only knows how you get into that st at 12 years old.

Don't use the dumb stuff some people do to try and reduce those kind of actions to "nasty name calling".

And if you don't want to be labelled as an evil person it's pretty simple really.

Don't act like one.

[wjb]

Not-The-Messiah said:

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did said that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Monday 13th July 18:33

Classic.

[coolg]

Hugo a Gogo said:

I've seen this type of argument before, isn't it possible that if indeed black people are disproportionately targets of police killings, they may well be equally, if not more so, disproportionate targets of arrests also? In fact it might be exactly as expected. Therefore the old 'they commit more crime' argument doesn't really make sense, unless you actually do believe there is some genetic element to crime, which is pretty much a definition of racism

Are you suggesting that police spend more time and effort in arresting black people over white people ? Surely they don't always know the ethnicity of the suspect when a crime is discovered. Most black people are killed by other black people, this appears to be a no win situation for the police in your eyes. If they investigate and arrest black people for killing other black people that is arresting a disproportionate amount of black people. If they don't investigate the murder sufficiently they are accused of not caring about the death of young black men.

If you look at the FBI stats posted by bstb3 black people appear to commit 53% of murders vs 44% by white people. in 2017 40% of US murders went unsolved, i presume these were all white as the police concentrate all their activities on arresting black people ?

If all unsolved murders were committed by white people that would give you 70% of murders committed by white people and 30% by black people. The black population of America is 13% so even applying your ideas they commit a disproportionate amount of murders.

So black people are arrested at the same rate of which they commit crime ?

What stats would be useful would be what the individuals killed by police were doing at the time of their death.

George Floyd's killing was a disgraceful situation, but out of the 1000 police killings every year how many happened in the course of committing a crime ?

[HAG LS1]

bhstewie said:

Dont Panic said:

I suppose this kid will now be subjected to the full force of twitterlaw, deplatformed, his family hounded out their house, their jobs, potential employers notified of his misdeed, his school expelling him, antifa daubing slogans anywhere he's seen, the news media camped outside, local shops refusing to admit him etc etc...Maybe not but id not be entirely surprised.

I've no idea.

Oddly my first thought was for Wilfried Zaha not the person who sent him racist abuse.

Priorities eh.

And just maybe we could all make a bit of progress if we found the middle ground between your posts, somewhere between angry paranoia and sneering self righteous?
Somehow though, that would require giving some ground..............

[HAG LS1]

bhstewie said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

Well the others who think it would be woeful inaction on racism who think child abuse is appropriate punishment for name calling are pathetic.
Racism in the form of nasty name calling is a stty thing to do but to me in the same league as calling someone names because they are fat, ugly, disabled or whatever. It defiantly comes well below physical child abuse.

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did say that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Dude we're not talking about someone accidentally using the word "coloured" instead of "black".

He allegedly literally sent him a photo of the KKK and the rest.

God only knows how you get into that st at 12 years old.

Don't use the dumb stuff some people do to try and reduce those kind of actions to "nasty name calling".

And if you don't want to be labelled as an evil person it's pretty simple really.

Don't act like one.

.

The word racist and the accusation of racism has now been weaponised to such a point that it’s actually preventing progress.

[wjb]

HAG LS1 said:

bhstewie said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

Well the others who think it would be woeful inaction on racism who think child abuse is appropriate punishment for name calling are pathetic.
Racism in the form of nasty name calling is a stty thing to do but to me in the same league as calling someone names because they are fat, ugly, disabled or whatever. It defiantly comes well below physical child abuse.

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did say that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Dude we're not talking about someone accidentally using the word "coloured" instead of "black".

He allegedly literally sent him a photo of the KKK and the rest.

God only knows how you get into that st at 12 years old.

Don't use the dumb stuff some people do to try and reduce those kind of actions to "nasty name calling".

And if you don't want to be labelled as an evil person it's pretty simple really.

Don't act like one.

.

The word racist and the accusation of racism has now been weaponised to such a point that it’s actually preventing progress.

Weaponised?

PH, the gift that keeps on giving...

[Hungrymc]

biggbn said:

Leon R said:

Can't say I agree with whole groups being written off as beyond help, the work of Daryl Davis makes me sure that some people are truly mis guided.

Why I said 'some' brother man! As an idealistic fool, I believe everyone has the potential to be better than the worst thing they have ever done. Some are not given the opportunity, some dont take it when given

And some don’t take the opportunity as they just don’t see it as such... education / up bringing / environment? I’d never excuse them, but we do need to understand why / how they end up like that. And in fact everyone has the opportunity.

[biggbn]

Hungrymc said:

biggbn said:

Leon R said:

Can't say I agree with whole groups being written off as beyond help, the work of Daryl Davis makes me sure that some people are truly mis guided.

Why I said 'some' brother man! As an idealistic fool, I believe everyone has the potential to be better than the worst thing they have ever done. Some are not given the opportunity, some dont take it when given

And some don’t take the opportunity as they just don’t see it as such... education / up bringing / environment? I’d never excuse them, but we do need to understand why / how they end up like that. And in fact everyone has the opportunity.

I'm afraid i dont believe everyone has the opportunity man. I see differing levels of opportunity daily, dependent on socio economic or cultural drivers, mental health issues, etc. Yes, in an ideal world eqyakity of opportunity would be holistic, but this is not an ideal world!

[Smiler.]

Another right-wing, militant agitator:

...they're acting out of low self esteem, they're acting out of a deficiency, therefore the only way they can act is evil, they have to rob, steal rape, kill & fight in order to survive. So when they didn't have what we had...they had to be savages, they had to be barbaric...they're acting as animals, so they're the ones that are closer to animals, they're the ones that are the true savages, and then they built up this conquering, barbaric mentality.


Or was it?

[bitchstewie]

HAG LS1 said:

bhstewie said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

Well the others who think it would be woeful inaction on racism who think child abuse is appropriate punishment for name calling are pathetic.
Racism in the form of nasty name calling is a stty thing to do but to me in the same league as calling someone names because they are fat, ugly, disabled or whatever. It defiantly comes well below physical child abuse.

Racism as now been driven to such an irrational level of outrage its dangerous there are many examples now of people being physically attacked sometimes very violently because they just said the wrong word and people are going "well they did say that word they deserve it".
The only reason it has been driven to such hysterical point is not because its really that bad but its because its a tool of control, if you can simply label someone with just a word instantly demonising them making them a evil person then its a very powerful tool. Its straight out of the play book of some of the actual most evil people in human history.

Dude we're not talking about someone accidentally using the word "coloured" instead of "black".

He allegedly literally sent him a photo of the KKK and the rest.

God only knows how you get into that st at 12 years old.

Don't use the dumb stuff some people do to try and reduce those kind of actions to "nasty name calling".

And if you don't want to be labelled as an evil person it's pretty simple really.

Don't act like one.

.

The word racist and the accusation of racism has now been weaponised to such a point that it’s actually preventing progress.

The funny thing is I've actually a bit of sympathy for that.

But I'd think most would agree that sending a black man a photo of the KKK and saying you're going to visit him dressed as a "ghost" is some pretty nasty st.

If you want to make progress work out how to stop people doing stuff like that.

[bitchstewie]

HAG LS1 said:

bhstewie said:

Dont Panic said:

I suppose this kid will now be subjected to the full force of twitterlaw, deplatformed, his family hounded out their house, their jobs, potential employers notified of his misdeed, his school expelling him, antifa daubing slogans anywhere he's seen, the news media camped outside, local shops refusing to admit him etc etc...Maybe not but id not be entirely surprised.

I've no idea.

Oddly my first thought was for Wilfried Zaha not the person who sent him racist abuse.

Priorities eh.

And just maybe we could all make a bit of progress if we found the middle ground between your posts, somewhere between angry paranoia and sneering self righteous?
Somehow though, that would require giving some ground..............

Yeah 61 pages many of them on why casual (and in many cases blatant) racism is basically OK and black people should get over themselves and I'm the one with "angry paranoia and sneering self righteous".

That's definitely the problem here.

[Dont Panic]

bhstewie said:

The funny thing is I've actually a bit of sympathy for that.

But I'd think most would agree that sending a black man a photo of the KKK and saying you're going to visit him dressed as a "ghost" is some pretty nasty st.

If you want to make progress work out how to stop people doing stuff like that.

Well you could start by pushing back at the narratives of the left who demonise white folk and claim theyre all guilty of unconscious bias, stop with the positive discrimination, and stop stupid, woke white idiots from portraying black people as victims of white aggression who are too stupid to understand what is being done to them and who need the help of these fools.
Black folk arent stupid and they dont need any help from pasty soy faced antifa types who think they alone have their fingers on the pulse of what black people are about.
Constantly highlighting differences and forcing an agenda just drives a wedge between all, Morgan Freeman said it best when he stated the way to get rid of racism was to “stop talking about it.”.

[Smiler.]

bhstewie said:

The funny thing is I've actually a bit of sympathy for that.

But I'd think most would agree that sending a black man a photo of the KKK and saying you're going to visit him dressed as a "ghost" is some pretty nasty st.

If you want to make progress work out how to stop people doing stuff like that.

How do you think it should be stopped? How do you think a 12 y.o. should be stopped from posting ste on social media?

Yes, it's more complex than that. Do you think the vogue for labelling anyone without an obvious fawning left viewpoint a racist is helpful?

Black people expressing equally racist attitudes under the guise of they can't be racist because white people, how should they be handled (the people & their views)?

Ironically, some of the most sensible voices I've heard or read during this present ststom are black or some other ethnicity. Ironic that is, under the banner of the BLM movement.

[HAG LS1]

wjb said:

Weaponised?

PH, the gift that keeps on giving...

Bless, wonderful insight.
Many thanks for the response.....

[HAG LS1]

bhstewie said:

Yeah 61 pages many of them on why casual (and in many cases blatant) racism is basically OK and black people should get over themselves and I'm the one with "angry paranoia and sneering self righteous".

That's definitely the problem here.

In which case you misunderstood my post.
I was pointing out how both yours and the other posters attitudes to each other seem to dominate the subject as opposed to trying to find some middle ground.
He possibly appears angry and paranoid to someone with your views and you, in turn appear sneering and self righteous to him, so yes, 61 pages on and personal remarks/digs are abound on here as is usual and 61 pages on no real movement forward.
You only have to look at the response a poster gave to me this morning, utterly useless, rather than discuss my point they picked a word I used and then made rather pathetic comment. Not sure if that’s because they are incapable of discussion or prefer to puff there chest out and try to insult posters but either way, tragic.
I wasn’t meaning to insult you personally, apologies if I came across as that, maybe I should have put more into the post?