CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 3)
Discussion
MikeT66 said:
Sorry, but I think it is a big issue.
1) We're not, nor have ever been, a mask-wearing culture. Maybe for a brief time of the old 'pea-soupers' of the 1950's, but never since.
2) Mission creep. I've said before that if we acquiesce to this, what is next? Because there will be something 'for our own good'.
3) Remember the media scare about 'hoodies' a little while ago, especially CMD's 'hug-a-hoodie' malarkey? Add masks onto that, and some people will take advantage.
4) I still don't think there is enough evidence, especially for the useless home-made crap, to support a nationwide instruction for healthy people and those outside of the high-risk groups to wear masks in public spaces.
Agree 100%.1) We're not, nor have ever been, a mask-wearing culture. Maybe for a brief time of the old 'pea-soupers' of the 1950's, but never since.
2) Mission creep. I've said before that if we acquiesce to this, what is next? Because there will be something 'for our own good'.
3) Remember the media scare about 'hoodies' a little while ago, especially CMD's 'hug-a-hoodie' malarkey? Add masks onto that, and some people will take advantage.
4) I still don't think there is enough evidence, especially for the useless home-made crap, to support a nationwide instruction for healthy people and those outside of the high-risk groups to wear masks in public spaces.
Mission creep. I hear that the WHO have changed their minds on outside airborne transmission of covid. Before the risk was very low but apparently now it is a higher risk. So what's next? Outside social distancing to go up to 5 meters? Outside dining banned? Cycling banned? Wearing masks to be compulsory in public places at all times? Masks to be worn inside your own house??
RSTurboPaul said:
The BBC are, if you'll excuse my French, a bunch of wilfully misleading, manipulative, fear-mongering 
s. Rather than report the actual facts from both sides, they are actively creating a narrative of fear and paranoia and ever-shifting goalposts through mis-reporting and non-reporting, such that the public is being kept in the dark about the true nature of Covid-19, made to believe everyone who gets it will either die a horrible, lonely death on an incubator in a hospital bed or suffer life-changing ongoing issues, and led to believe that intrusive and pointless social engineering is required to 'stop' a virus that appears to be less harmful than flu and which could be easily dealt with through measures targeted at the most vulnerable.
The BBC's actions are shameful. I support the arts and the excellent productions they can create, but for this, I think they should be hauled over the coals and an investigation undertaken in full public view, so we can know who within the organisation has been instructing them to take this damaging and reckless approach.
Totally agree. Only today they published a report on Rishi Sunaks covid budget response showing diners at a restaurant wearing face masks as if it will be the new normal. fs. Rather than report the actual facts from both sides, they are actively creating a narrative of fear and paranoia and ever-shifting goalposts through mis-reporting and non-reporting, such that the public is being kept in the dark about the true nature of Covid-19, made to believe everyone who gets it will either die a horrible, lonely death on an incubator in a hospital bed or suffer life-changing ongoing issues, and led to believe that intrusive and pointless social engineering is required to 'stop' a virus that appears to be less harmful than flu and which could be easily dealt with through measures targeted at the most vulnerable.The BBC's actions are shameful. I support the arts and the excellent productions they can create, but for this, I think they should be hauled over the coals and an investigation undertaken in full public view, so we can know who within the organisation has been instructing them to take this damaging and reckless approach.
king fear mongering bds! Utterly fed up with all this bulls
t to be honest. I've been out 3 times since March, normally I'd be out 3 times a week. What happens when the 'normal' flu season hits in the winter? Shut the whole country down again for 3 months?
"Lockdown" and "The New Normal" the most hated words of the 21st century.
GSE said:
Same here. Nor will I be going to any restaurant that expects me to sit behind a sheet of perspex and wear a mask. So go on Government .... introduce a law that requires a face mask to be worn at all times in public spaces. Then you can really hammer some big nails into the coffin of the economy for good.
I think theyll underestimate the amount of people that won't use shops, and public places etc with having to use a mask.Good luck for anybusiness trying to build up custom in those times. If it can be done from home it will be.
Although delivery businesses will probably be booming.
GSE said:
Same here. Nor will I be going to any restaurant that expects me to sit behind a sheet of perspex and wear a mask. So go on Government .... introduce a law that requires a face mask to be worn at all times in public spaces. Then you can really hammer some big nails into the coffin of the economy for good.
Welcome to fking Scotland... As of Friday it will be a criminal offence to be in a shop without a face covering (not an actual, vaguely effective mask). Next Wednesday however, you’ll be able to sit indoors in a pub or restaurant without one though. Go figure.https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covi...
I made the mistake of wandering into the 'Covid 19 Anti Vaxxers' thread...:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
There is a frightening amount of people in there who think we shouldn't have a choice to immunise if a vaccine is ever available, and that those who don't could be justifiably kept out of society by being refused entrance.
It seems we must all take every action to reduce all risk to all other people.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
There is a frightening amount of people in there who think we shouldn't have a choice to immunise if a vaccine is ever available, and that those who don't could be justifiably kept out of society by being refused entrance.
It seems we must all take every action to reduce all risk to all other people.
None of this tinkering from the govt and wasting £billions will make any difference till they address the real issue.
Which is still, that people see the deaths falling and assume that is due to lockdown and nothing else.
So they still refuse to leave their houses. They genuinely believe lockdowns are the only things protecting them from an agonising death.
Even if they're 21.
Which is still, that people see the deaths falling and assume that is due to lockdown and nothing else.
So they still refuse to leave their houses. They genuinely believe lockdowns are the only things protecting them from an agonising death.
Even if they're 21.
RSTurboPaul said:
Is there a link to where that graph came from?
Not sure if this is posted already but Lancet reporting 5.2% prevalence in testing, framed (of course
) as 'herd immunity is impossible without a vaccine':
https://twitter.com/i/events/1280194458722562049?s...
I don't understand how they can frame it in that way. If many (most?) are asymptomatic and have no detectable antibodies after catching the actual live virus, surely they will see the exact same outcome after receiving a shot of dead virus in a vaccination? In which case, why do we need a vaccine??
It's google mobility data. Full CSV hereNot sure if this is posted already but Lancet reporting 5.2% prevalence in testing, framed (of course
) as 'herd immunity is impossible without a vaccine':https://twitter.com/i/events/1280194458722562049?s...
I don't understand how they can frame it in that way. If many (most?) are asymptomatic and have no detectable antibodies after catching the actual live virus, surely they will see the exact same outcome after receiving a shot of dead virus in a vaccination? In which case, why do we need a vaccine??
https://www.gstatic.com/covid19/mobility/Global_Mo...
Zoobeef said:
GSE said:
Same here. Nor will I be going to any restaurant that expects me to sit behind a sheet of perspex and wear a mask. So go on Government .... introduce a law that requires a face mask to be worn at all times in public spaces. Then you can really hammer some big nails into the coffin of the economy for good.
I think theyll underestimate the amount of people that won't use shops, and public places etc with having to use a mask.Good luck for anybusiness trying to build up custom in those times. If it can be done from home it will be.
Although delivery businesses will probably be booming.
sambucket said:
Elysium said:
I know you would. That is why I said your views lacked balance and were dangerous.
At a time when the virus is clearly receding, you are arguing for extended, harder lockdown, with little objective evidence that this will achieve anything and almost negligable thought for the consequences.
No. Can I have a go?At a time when the virus is clearly receding, you are arguing for extended, harder lockdown, with little objective evidence that this will achieve anything and almost negligable thought for the consequences.
You are arguing, that by continuing prioritise the suppression of COVID, which is basically the same as flu, NHS and govt have given barely any thought to the consequences, or longer term health and economic costs and benefits. And are instead doing whatever looks good politically in the short term, with no regard for long term impact on general society? Through a combination of stupidity and personal self preservation?
have I got that more or less right?
What we are seeing now is their desperate floundering attempts to wind back from that position. An exercise made much more difficult by the terrifying propaganda campaign that they unleashed on their own people. A campaign that has made it very difficult for them to admit that Coronavirus does not kill indiscriminantly regardless of age and that we no longer need to stay at home to be safe.
My position for the future is simple. We need to stop half arsed experiments where we implement unproved solutions without sufficient data to know if there is any chance that we are actually going to make things better.
sim72 said:
Elysium said:
You seem to think you have found another way. That we can lockdown so hard and so long that we can wink it out of existence. But you have absolutely no idea if it will actually work and you are deliberately ignoring the obvious downsides. That is not a balanced outlook. It is dangerous.
As an island, with the political will, yes we *could* have done that. But we had a half-arsed lockdown, we didn't close the borders, and now we've lifted most of what rules there were with the virus still circulating and it's too late. So yes, we are going to live with it now long-term, with all of the problems that causes not only for the 15 million people who are elderly or have underlying health issues that make them vulnerable to COVID, but everyone else as well.
I am saying that we have no idea if that would achieve any plausible benefit and that we cannot ignore the monumental cost it would add to the economic s
t storm we have already unleashed. RSTurboPaul said:
Not sure if this is posted already but Lancet reporting 5.2% prevalence in testing, framed (of course ) as 'herd immunity is impossible without a vaccine':
https://twitter.com/i/events/1280194458722562049?s...
I don't understand how they can frame it in that way. If many (most?) are asymptomatic and have no detectable antibodies after catching the actual live virus, surely they will see the exact same outcome after receiving a shot of dead virus in a vaccination? In which case, why do we need a vaccine??
What the study actually says is: ) as 'herd immunity is impossible without a vaccine':https://twitter.com/i/events/1280194458722562049?s...
I don't understand how they can frame it in that way. If many (most?) are asymptomatic and have no detectable antibodies after catching the actual live virus, surely they will see the exact same outcome after receiving a shot of dead virus in a vaccination? In which case, why do we need a vaccine??
Spanish Study said:
At present, herd immunity is difficult to achieve without accepting the collateral damage of many deaths in the susceptible population and overburdening of health systems.
I don't think it was ever going to be easy to work through pandemic, but that is the hand we have been dealt. The paper also talks about the variation in regions, with some regions like Madrid at much higher levels of prevalence, beyond the point at which some people believe the 'herd immunity threshold' kicks in and slows transmission to manageable levels.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...
RSTurboPaul said:
I made the mistake of wandering into the 'Covid 19 Anti Vaxxers' thread...:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
There is a frightening amount of people in there who think we shouldn't have a choice to immunise if a vaccine is ever available, and that those who don't could be justifiably kept out of society by being refused entrance.
It seems we must all take every action to reduce all risk to all other people.
No different than schools requiring evidence of MMR vaccination before accepting kids. Our local primary does, as it has two immunodeficient children who can't have the vaccination and who measles could kill. Frankly, people who don't give their kids MMR (unless they fall into the very small category that can't have it) are dangerous sociopaths. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
There is a frightening amount of people in there who think we shouldn't have a choice to immunise if a vaccine is ever available, and that those who don't could be justifiably kept out of society by being refused entrance.
It seems we must all take every action to reduce all risk to all other people.
The google mobility data is an interesting response to the argument that the UK did not lockdown and that Sweden have a virtual lockdown:
There are some quite dramatic differences between the two countries. Yet the one that did not lockdown and that had significantly higher levels of movement has seen fewer deaths per million.
There are some quite dramatic differences between the two countries. Yet the one that did not lockdown and that had significantly higher levels of movement has seen fewer deaths per million.
alangla said:
Welcome to fking Scotland... As of Friday it will be a criminal offence to be in a shop without a face covering (not an actual, vaguely effective mask). Next Wednesday however, you’ll be able to sit indoors in a pub or restaurant without one though. Go figure.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covi...
I’m going nowhere near a shop till it’s done. Last bit of stupid interference for me I’m willing to accept. All from a set of dribbling fking Scotland... As of Friday it will be a criminal offence to be in a shop without a face covering (not an actual, vaguely effective mask). Next Wednesday however, you’ll be able to sit indoors in a pub or restaurant without one though. Go figure.https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covi...
king morons who seem to want to invade our lives more than I think they have any right to.... and that’s not even this, it’s a whole catalogue of interfering bullst we are subjected to by visibly incompetent fktards.I can order anything I need online, I’m working from home to get deliveries, and I’ve already checked I can buy fuel at the window in the garage (during which the attendant agreed this is moronic too).
Elysium said:
There are some quite dramatic differences between the two countries. Yet the one that did not lockdown and that had significantly higher levels of movement has seen fewer deaths per million.
Lousy comparison to make comparing the UK to Sweden, surely even you recognize that.. Compare Sweden to Finland/Denmark/Norway (like y'know their immediate neighbours) and if you can still say no lockdown and higher levels of movement has fewer deaths per million perhaps it might have a little more substance.
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