CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 3)
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's the problem of being obsessed with controlling public opinion; they were so good persuading the plebs it was the apocalypse, they can't get them out from under the duvet. Now businesses have been forced to work out they have more staff than they ever needed and can save a fortune by having them work from home. Genie is out of the bottle. WinstonWolf said:
Andy888 said:
Got my eyes opened a bit this morning. I've two girls, aged 9 and 6. I needed to drop my car over to the mechanic so suggested I drop them with my mother for breakfast while I went on with car. My mother is 78, with no ailments apart from fear and frustration depending on what day of the week it is.
My kids haven't been near this granny since March. She skipped their birthdays and whatever, fine, her opinion. But this morning my kids said they didn't want to go and see nanny cos "she is vulnerable and we are little germ spreaders, and we might give her the virus and kill her".
I've been at home with them for 3.5 months and let's just say we're not one of those families. It really hit me quite hard that this is what they are thinking in their little minds. Then I got angry, as that message must have been instilled in them at school pre-lockdown, as we don't watch BBC and we haven't been mixing with fear-mongers.
I know this a bit of a personal story, and not the data driven science posts that we usually have in here, but I guess it harks back to the points we have made about kids being the group that is impacted most by the thing that doesn't medically affect them. I read that schools are actually going to be cutting back on the curriculum, reducing exams, and providing some kind of wishy washy mental health recovery sessions and I do wonder what sort of society is being created here. Someone cheer me up lol
The psychological damage of lockdown will take years to heal. My kids haven't been near this granny since March. She skipped their birthdays and whatever, fine, her opinion. But this morning my kids said they didn't want to go and see nanny cos "she is vulnerable and we are little germ spreaders, and we might give her the virus and kill her".
I've been at home with them for 3.5 months and let's just say we're not one of those families. It really hit me quite hard that this is what they are thinking in their little minds. Then I got angry, as that message must have been instilled in them at school pre-lockdown, as we don't watch BBC and we haven't been mixing with fear-mongers.
I know this a bit of a personal story, and not the data driven science posts that we usually have in here, but I guess it harks back to the points we have made about kids being the group that is impacted most by the thing that doesn't medically affect them. I read that schools are actually going to be cutting back on the curriculum, reducing exams, and providing some kind of wishy washy mental health recovery sessions and I do wonder what sort of society is being created here. Someone cheer me up lol
OzzyR1 said:
bmwmike said:
I know a few people who have had it and a couple who have died "of" (with?) it. One had no known pre-existing conditions.
I dont think covid is a hoax.
But, i do think we as a society have prioritised old duffers over kids and young people. Hugely unfair. Closing schools so that vulnerable people can go to garden centres ffs. If youre vulnerable stay home, or go out and take your chances. Lets not put young peoples lives on hold though. Glad to see schools opening up fully in Sept.
I don't think Covid is a hoax either, as I'm not a tinfoil-sporting lunatic.I dont think covid is a hoax.
But, i do think we as a society have prioritised old duffers over kids and young people. Hugely unfair. Closing schools so that vulnerable people can go to garden centres ffs. If youre vulnerable stay home, or go out and take your chances. Lets not put young peoples lives on hold though. Glad to see schools opening up fully in Sept.
Would say however that my dad, (in his retirement), part-owns a funeral director firm. Obviously, they have been busy of late so he has been mucking in where required.
If they get a body in with Covid/suspected Covid on the death cert, they have to take various extra precautions as you can imagine. One of the restrictions on those bodies is that the family is not allowed into the funeral parlour to see the deceased lying in state.
They had a body in the other day, cause of death was "suspected Covid" as the elderly chap had fluid on his lungs when briefly examined by the coroner. His daughter turned up at my dad's firm, asking to see her father and they told her no - a mention of Covid on the death cert so no visitors.
Transpired she was a doctor, a specialist in pulmonary issues. Said her father had had fluid on the lungs for 3-4 years and despite what the coroner might have guessed at in a short space of time, she could guarantee he died of a heart attack as it happened in front of her and she tried to resuscitate him.
They let her in to say her goodbyes, and on leaving she said that when we look back, it will be strange how few people died from flu/COPD this year compared to the average as so much is being signed off as Covid-related.
Time will tell I suppose.
We are about 11,000 below the average of 57,000. Which puts the 49,000 COVID deaths into perspective.
Elysium said:
sim72 said:
Elysium said:
sim72 said:
Elysium said:
The numbers are interesting. COVID deaths stand at 49,607 and flu deaths at 45,977, so quite similar. However, average flu deaths are 57,221. This suggests two things to me:
1. The COVID impact is on a similar scale to existing deaths from flu and pneumonia.
2. We are likely to be reporting some flu and pneumonia deaths as COVID and this could account for circa 23% of the total COVID death toll.
What you're missing is that the flu deaths are lamost certainly lower than average because COVID killed them before flu could.1. The COVID impact is on a similar scale to existing deaths from flu and pneumonia.
2. We are likely to be reporting some flu and pneumonia deaths as COVID and this could account for circa 23% of the total COVID death toll.
Those 49,000 are ones where COVID was noted as the cause of death (together with a positive test). There are an additional 10K deaths where COVID was not given as the cause of death but was mentioned on the death certificate as a factor - some of those will certainly have been pneumonia deaths.
Also, in the early stages of the pandemic, I would not be surprised if some COVID deaths were almost certainly noted as pneumonia, as we weren't testing for it.
The notes accompanying the data set state the following:
ONS said:
A death can be registered with both COVID-19 and Influenza and Pneumonia mentioned on the death certificate. Because pneumonia may be a consequence of COVID-19, deaths where both were mentioned have been counted only in the COVID-19 category.
So anything which mentions COVID will definitely be in the 49,607. If you think about it, the number of people who actually died of flu/pneumonia but happened to be COVID-positive at the time is likely to be very low.
50,219 is occurence of deaths involving COVID at wk 26
Both figures include all deaths where COVID is mentioned. They do not require positive tests.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fpeoplepopulatio...
The difference happens because registrations lag occurences.
Where are you getting 56,019 from?
Elysium said:
sim72 said:
Elysium said:
I posted about flu and pneumonia deaths yesterday,
We are about 11,000 below the average of 57,000. Which puts the 49,000 COVID deaths into perspective.
Yes, you got it wrong yesterday as well. Don't double up on it. Seriously.We are about 11,000 below the average of 57,000. Which puts the 49,000 COVID deaths into perspective.
You suggested a different figure to the ONS and I asked you to explain where it came from but you never responded.
OzzyR1 said:
They let her in to say her goodbyes, and on leaving she said that when we look back, it will be strange how few people died from flu/COPD this year compared to the average as so much is being signed off as Covid-related.
Not really a surprise though I suppose. you can only die once (I think) and if you're especially vulnerable to a respiratory illness it's a bit of a moot point to you personally whether covid does the job or flu/pneumonia. the bigger issue is how many extra people covid is killing over and beyond the 'normal' vulnerable to respiratory type diseases group and that's so far been quite a significant number it seems unless it evens out quite dramatically over the rest of the year. sim72 said:
Elysium said:
sim72 said:
Elysium said:
I posted about flu and pneumonia deaths yesterday,
We are about 11,000 below the average of 57,000. Which puts the 49,000 COVID deaths into perspective.
Yes, you got it wrong yesterday as well. Don't double up on it. Seriously.We are about 11,000 below the average of 57,000. Which puts the 49,000 COVID deaths into perspective.
You suggested a different figure to the ONS and I asked you to explain where it came from but you never responded.
ONS said:
A death can be registered with both COVID-19 and Influenza and Pneumonia mentioned on the death certificate. Because pneumonia may be a consequence of COVID-19, deaths where both were mentioned have been counted only in the COVID-19 category.
Read what I actually wrote and try to explain what you disagree with. Edited by Elysium on Saturday 11th July 01:17
isaldiri said:
OzzyR1 said:
They let her in to say her goodbyes, and on leaving she said that when we look back, it will be strange how few people died from flu/COPD this year compared to the average as so much is being signed off as Covid-related.
Not really a surprise though I suppose. you can only die once (I think) and if you're especially vulnerable to a respiratory illness it's a bit of a moot point to you personally whether covid does the job or flu/pneumonia. the bigger issue is how many extra people covid is killing over and beyond the 'normal' vulnerable to respiratory type diseases group and that's so far been quite a significant number it seems unless it evens out quite dramatically over the rest of the year.Will be interesting to see how many deaths this year have been recorded as Covid, and how many have been recorded as influenza. I suspect that there will be a fall in "flu" deaths compared to the average of previous years, as Covid seems to have been listed on many death certs on the basis of probability without a coroners investigation in many cases.
That said, it appears that Covid has caused an earlier death than natural in the elderly and/or most vulnerable in our communities. That is a horrible thing to happen, and if it is the case, I would expect to see a spike in deaths in that sector of the population now.
Again, over the next couple of years, we will look back on the data. If there is a dip in the next year or two in the elderly/vulnerable annual death-rate compared to historical averages, that will prove the case that Covid took some folks before their time would normally be up.
It's all speculation now,
Well you have to laugh.
The government spend months telling businesses/people to work from home, but now (finally) realise the damage they have caused to the economy so want businesses/people to stop working from home but still want to impose stupid conditions to working outside home.
Clue and no f
king spring to mind.
The government spend months telling businesses/people to work from home, but now (finally) realise the damage they have caused to the economy so want businesses/people to stop working from home but still want to impose stupid conditions to working outside home.
Clue and no f
king spring to mind.dmahon said:
Thin White Duke said:
Saweep said:
I just don't see how it is anyway conducive to getting things moving again.
The truly fearful will stay at home till they are dragged kicking and screaming to the benefits office anyway. Masks or no masks.
Most other people will just do what others do as they are mindless drones.
The problem here is that people are still scared silly and nothing is being done to explain to them why they shouldn't be.
I'm still annoyed that there has been no powerful anti-lockdown or anti restriction voice in politics, business or even from celebrities. The truly fearful will stay at home till they are dragged kicking and screaming to the benefits office anyway. Masks or no masks.
Most other people will just do what others do as they are mindless drones.
The problem here is that people are still scared silly and nothing is being done to explain to them why they shouldn't be.
Usually in everything from Brexit to The bedroom tax there are arguments and strong voices on both sides. But not about the lock-down. Not about masks. Why not?
Where are the Branson or Sugar types or a high ranking MP or even Bob Geldof to speak out and question the restrictions?
I suppose I can answer my own question and guess that they are keeping their mouths shut for fear of being branded murderers.
GroundEffect said:
fk no. The silver lining of this pandemic was the realisation that home working is more productive, better for work life balance and better for the environment. Yes it'll hurt the businesses that exist to support those days but change was right.
I'll be working from home at least 3 days a week now, permanently. I've just finished setting up my proper home office.
That is very job specific and also depends on the home broadband speed.k no. The silver lining of this pandemic was the realisation that home working is more productive, better for work life balance and better for the environment. Yes it'll hurt the businesses that exist to support those days but change was right. I'll be working from home at least 3 days a week now, permanently. I've just finished setting up my proper home office.
We aren't in a cable broadband area so our internet speed isn't fast enough for some of the systems I use and the files I access. For my wife it is even worse and even though they provided her with a laptop everything took too long to load to make home working viable.
Then you add on the lack of dual screens and the lack of a fast printer/scanner.
As pointed out before as well the youngsters are on furlough as they cannot be supported or supervised adequately.
Productivity is therefore only better in the right job with the right setup, that includes broadband speed.
mx5nut said:
Was he? Do you mean that he threw a tantrum when he said things in public and couldn't handle people disagreeing with him like a grown up?
If he did do that it's a shame he's allowed himself to be dragged down to the level of you're typical brainwashed woke SJW... given that's exactly what their behaviour and standard of debating ability is.OzzyR1 said:
isaldiri said:
OzzyR1 said:
They let her in to say her goodbyes, and on leaving she said that when we look back, it will be strange how few people died from flu/COPD this year compared to the average as so much is being signed off as Covid-related.
Not really a surprise though I suppose. you can only die once (I think) and if you're especially vulnerable to a respiratory illness it's a bit of a moot point to you personally whether covid does the job or flu/pneumonia. the bigger issue is how many extra people covid is killing over and beyond the 'normal' vulnerable to respiratory type diseases group and that's so far been quite a significant number it seems unless it evens out quite dramatically over the rest of the year.Will be interesting to see how many deaths this year have been recorded as Covid, and how many have been recorded as influenza. I suspect that there will be a fall in "flu" deaths compared to the average of previous years, as Covid seems to have been listed on many death certs on the basis of probability without a coroners investigation in many cases.
That said, it appears that Covid has caused an earlier death than natural in the elderly and/or most vulnerable in our communities. That is a horrible thing to happen, and if it is the case, I would expect to see a spike in deaths in that sector of the population now.
Again, over the next couple of years, we will look back on the data. If there is a dip in the next year or two in the elderly/vulnerable annual death-rate compared to historical averages, that will prove the case that Covid took some folks before their time would normally be up.
It's all speculation now,
We are already running at many fewer deaths than usual for the time of year during a time when deaths are low. I expect this to continue until at least March or April next year. Due to the extra care most people are putting into avoiding spreading germs we may well end up with less deaths than normal. Will people then say Covid has allowed old people to live longer than their 'natural' time?
We decided we were not going into lockdown, then France and Spain did it. The British people who were scared shouted ‘look at what they are doing - we should do that as well’.
Now with masks it’s the same thing. People have seen Americans and Asians wearing them on the telly. Then they found out that lots of people were wearing them in France and Italy. ‘Look’ they shouted ‘those people are wearing masks and when I went to Tesco this morning I was the only one doing it’.
It’s the the exact same thing. Sturgeon has recognised the Govts weakness and exploited it. Now she is first out of the blocks and Johnson can’t help but follow her.
We will wear masks until we realise everyone else has taken theirs off. There is no thinking or science here, it’s just like a panic in a crowd. We see someone else shout out and run away, so we do the same.
Now with masks it’s the same thing. People have seen Americans and Asians wearing them on the telly. Then they found out that lots of people were wearing them in France and Italy. ‘Look’ they shouted ‘those people are wearing masks and when I went to Tesco this morning I was the only one doing it’.
It’s the the exact same thing. Sturgeon has recognised the Govts weakness and exploited it. Now she is first out of the blocks and Johnson can’t help but follow her.
We will wear masks until we realise everyone else has taken theirs off. There is no thinking or science here, it’s just like a panic in a crowd. We see someone else shout out and run away, so we do the same.
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