Bianca Williams stop accusing race motivated.
Discussion
anonymoususer said:
biggbn said:
Yes, i agree. But this was not lots of little acts according to initial info. It was failing to stop, driving off, speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road. One of them would be enough for a ticket one would have thought, so all of them? One wonders if this was a tactical decision by police when nothing was found and they realised the fuss that woukd be made? Again, conjecture, but it all doesn't seem to fit together well, does it?
No it doesnt I suspect that plod acted in good faith but that now its become a political hot potato and the met is bending and flexing like a good un
mcdjl said:
anonymoususer said:
biggbn said:
Yes, i agree. But this was not lots of little acts according to initial info. It was failing to stop, driving off, speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road. One of them would be enough for a ticket one would have thought, so all of them? One wonders if this was a tactical decision by police when nothing was found and they realised the fuss that woukd be made? Again, conjecture, but it all doesn't seem to fit together well, does it?
No it doesnt I suspect that plod acted in good faith but that now its become a political hot potato and the met is bending and flexing like a good un
biggbn said:
mmm-five said:
biggbn said:
Won't they look a bit stupid releasing a video that will presumably show speeding, driving away and possibly dangerous driving yet no charges were brought. This will make the apology look needless and Dick look like...a Dick presumably? Unless it does show something else of course?
Why do you seem to be fixated on the "they can't have done anything wrong, because they weren't charged with anything!".People do lots of little unlawful acts and 'get let off' - otherwise the police would prosecute everyone they saw doing 71mph on the motorway, or parking on a double-yellow line, or pulling away from the lights a bit sharpish...rather than giving them a pull and leaving them with a friendly warning.
Otherwise we'd all be moaning about how draconian the police are.
It is an individual power to a Constable, fortunately in the U.K. they have the ability to choose how to deal with an incident
Committing an offence does not automatically mean appearing in court
I for one am very glad that the police can apply discretion and common sense in enforcement rather than follow a “ protocol” slavishly
Unfortunately incidents like this are likely to be counterproductive in that it is likely to inhibit officers using their discretion in future
biggbn said:
mcdjl said:
anonymoususer said:
biggbn said:
Yes, i agree. But this was not lots of little acts according to initial info. It was failing to stop, driving off, speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road. One of them would be enough for a ticket one would have thought, so all of them? One wonders if this was a tactical decision by police when nothing was found and they realised the fuss that woukd be made? Again, conjecture, but it all doesn't seem to fit together well, does it?
No it doesnt I suspect that plod acted in good faith but that now its become a political hot potato and the met is bending and flexing like a good un
Do they want to be more well known than they are, I hadn't heard their names before but I am not remotely into athletics, I know Usain Bolt, Sally Gunnel, er, Daley Thompson and Roger Bannister.
Seems like it is getting so every Police interaction with someone who isn't white is now perceived as being racially motivated, sometimes it may be, dont doubt that but also, might be that someone is doing something they shouldn't.
I saw one on one of those Police Camera Action videos, a copper stopped a motorist speeding in the early hours, driver was a bit put out and said that he had only been stopped due to his skin colour, the copper calmly said "Its 2.40 AM, its dark and you were doing 60 mph in a 40 and I was behind you how could I possibly know your ethnicity, I stopped you because you were exceeding the speed limit" - not the exact words but paraphrasing, that was the gist of it.
Red 4 said:
Dick is apologising for any distress caused but not apologising for the officers' actions.
Big difference.
I do think her apology should have made that point clearer. Yes it may have weakened her apology but it would have reinforced her support for the policemen involved. Big difference.
Many on here use the words dragged and pulled and perhaps I missed it but I saw nobody being dragged (v. pull (someone or something) along forcefully, roughly, or with difficulty.) out of the vehicle. It was made clear they needed to exit the vehicle and that approach may have been a little aggressive (baton drawn/ raised voices - command given) but ONLY because by driving off they set themselves up as potentially difficult members of the public who would not comply in driving off.
Pip
biggbn said:
mcdjl said:
anonymoususer said:
biggbn said:
Yes, i agree. But this was not lots of little acts according to initial info. It was failing to stop, driving off, speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road. One of them would be enough for a ticket one would have thought, so all of them? One wonders if this was a tactical decision by police when nothing was found and they realised the fuss that woukd be made? Again, conjecture, but it all doesn't seem to fit together well, does it?
No it doesnt I suspect that plod acted in good faith but that now its become a political hot potato and the met is bending and flexing like a good un
Pip1968 said:
Red 4 said:
Dick is apologising for any distress caused but not apologising for the officers' actions.
Big difference.
I do think her apology should have made that point clearer. Yes it may have weakened her apology but it would have reinforced her support for the policemen involved. Big difference.
Many on here use the words dragged and pulled and perhaps I missed it but I saw nobody being dragged (v. pull (someone or something) along forcefully, roughly, or with difficulty.) out of the vehicle. It was made clear they needed to exit the vehicle and that approach may have been a little aggressive (baton drawn/ raised voices - command given) but ONLY because by driving off they set themselves up as potentially difficult members of the public who would not comply in driving off.
Pip
J4CKO said:
biggbn said:
mcdjl said:
anonymoususer said:
biggbn said:
Yes, i agree. But this was not lots of little acts according to initial info. It was failing to stop, driving off, speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road. One of them would be enough for a ticket one would have thought, so all of them? One wonders if this was a tactical decision by police when nothing was found and they realised the fuss that woukd be made? Again, conjecture, but it all doesn't seem to fit together well, does it?
No it doesnt I suspect that plod acted in good faith but that now its become a political hot potato and the met is bending and flexing like a good un
Do they want to be more well known than they are, I hadn't heard their names before but I am not remotely into athletics, I know Usain Bolt, Sally Gunnel, er, Daley Thompson and Roger Bannister.
Seems like it is getting so every Police interaction with someone who isn't white is now perceived as being racially motivated, sometimes it may be, dont doubt that but also, might be that someone is doing something they shouldn't.
I saw one on one of those Police Camera Action videos, a copper stopped a motorist speeding in the early hours, driver was a bit put out and said that he had only been stopped due to his skin colour, the copper calmly said "Its 2.40 AM, its dark and you were doing 60 mph in a 40 and I was behind you how could I possibly know your ethnicity, I stopped you because you were exceeding the speed limit" - not the exact words but paraphrasing, that was the gist of it.
biggbn said:
Fair point re publicity, and this always knaws away at me. If they were being dicks, and know the police will have video evidence...why complain? I think Williams, rightly or wrong, genuinely feels aggrieved.
One of the lads at work was driving uphill on a narrow country lane when I guy came around the bend at the top of the hill and ploughed straight down into the narrow section, causing him to brake to a stop. As he passed, the bloke gave him a load of static and said he'd send dashcam footage to the police.A few days later a WPC visited my mate and asked him his version of events, as she'd been asked to investigate. When he finished explaining, she said "yes, that's how I see it too, the other driver was completely in the wrong. I'm off round there next to put his head on straight."
Apparently, she also explained, it is common for people to send in dashcam footage to the police which incriminates themselves, rather than any other party.
biggbn said:
I think Williams, rightly or wrong, genuinely feels aggrieved.
I don't. I listened to her interview on LBC (the early interviews are always the most revealing) and she knows damn well they behaved incorrectly. All the excuses were being lined up at that point.. We stopped, but decided to drive home because it was safer........ it's racial profiling (but I've never experienced this before) We decided to turn suddenly because you wait 15 minutes at the traffic lights....10 minutes.... 5 minutes..... I was getting out of the car, then I decided not to get out of the car........ They drove like dicks, got the attention of plod, stopped, drove off quickly, knew they were being followed and then got arsey when they finally did stop. In the current climate the best way for them to defend their actions was to claim victimhood, and the media lapped it up big time.
The Met should have stood by their position. Look how many people (you included) are suggesting that the police should have approached them more sensitively. A car that had already made off after an initial stop?
In the week when we are hearing about what happened to PC Harper when he approached a car ?
Don't wanna get stopped by the Police? Drive properly, on the correct side of the road and you stand a better chance of being left alone. Don't wanna be put in cuffs? Try stopping when you're told and acting reasonably when asked to exit your vehicle. Rocket science it aint. Neither is it racism.
andymadmak said:
Don't wanna get stopped by the Police? Drive properly, on the correct side of the road and you stand a better chance of being left alone. Don't wanna be put in cuffs? Try stopping when you're told and acting reasonably when asked to exit your vehicle. Rocket science it aint. Neither is it racism.
DriveristStupidist
Racist
Am I doing this right ?
Don't try and use logic and common sense, this is 2020 !
andymadmak said:
I don't. I listened to her interview on LBC (the early interviews are always the most revealing) and she knows damn well they behaved incorrectly. All the excuses were being lined up at that point..
Don't wanna get stopped by the Police? Drive properly, on the correct side of the road and you stand a better chance of being left alone. Don't wanna be put in cuffs? Try stopping when you're told and acting reasonably when asked to exit your vehicle. Rocket science it aint. Neither is it racism.
Don't wanna get stopped by the Police? Drive properly, on the correct side of the road and you stand a better chance of being left alone. Don't wanna be put in cuffs? Try stopping when you're told and acting reasonably when asked to exit your vehicle. Rocket science it aint. Neither is it racism.
This is all that needs be said about the matter.
andymadmak said:
biggbn said:
I think Williams, rightly or wrong, genuinely feels aggrieved.
I don't. I listened to her interview on LBC (the early interviews are always the most revealing) and she knows damn well they behaved incorrectly. All the excuses were being lined up at that point.. We stopped, but decided to drive home because it was safer........ it's racial profiling (but I've never experienced this before) We decided to turn suddenly because you wait 15 minutes at the traffic lights....10 minutes.... 5 minutes..... I was getting out of the car, then I decided not to get out of the car........ They drove like dicks, got the attention of plod, stopped, drove off quickly, knew they were being followed and then got arsey when they finally did stop. In the current climate the best way for them to defend their actions was to claim victimhood, and the media lapped it up big time.
The Met should have stood by their position. Look how many people (you included) are suggesting that the police should have approached them more sensitively. A car that had already made off after an initial stop?
In the week when we are hearing about what happened to PC Harper when he approached a car ?
Don't wanna get stopped by the Police? Drive properly, on the correct side of the road and you stand a better chance of being left alone. Don't wanna be put in cuffs? Try stopping when you're told and acting reasonably when asked to exit your vehicle. Rocket science it aint. Neither is it racism.
I still suspect there is more to this and the apology will allow a small compensation claim which makes it go away, so it amounts to no more than a political bribe to keep the peace IF the police acted appropriately.
Edited by biggbn on Thursday 9th July 11:15
Always thought if a Police officer asks you to stop, you stop. If your blocking the road for other users that's for the Police to control as they have told you to stop?
As for the bit about correct side of the road etc...Not seen any footage of that but it might mean Cutting a corner if turning right into a side road? driving down a narrow road with double parked cars on both sides might be cutting it fine as the car is likely to be over the central divide markings (if there were any).
But why not just step out of the car as instructed, be polite and assist the officers?
Instead of which we get the negative attitude why should I
And why the hell is she even bothering to film it on her phone?
That clearly tells me they knew the situation was going to escalate because of their actions.
As for the bit about correct side of the road etc...Not seen any footage of that but it might mean Cutting a corner if turning right into a side road? driving down a narrow road with double parked cars on both sides might be cutting it fine as the car is likely to be over the central divide markings (if there were any).
But why not just step out of the car as instructed, be polite and assist the officers?
Instead of which we get the negative attitude why should I
And why the hell is she even bothering to film it on her phone?
That clearly tells me they knew the situation was going to escalate because of their actions.
Edited by fatboy18 on Thursday 9th July 11:27
One shouldn’t generalise in these cases but it very much looks like many cases follow the same pattern.
Police feel the need to stop someone (for what ever reason), that someone doesn’t want to be stopped, a struggle (verbal/physical) ensues and the situation escalates.
Often a short period of cooperation by the MOP will see a whole lot of agro averted.
This applies to MOP of all types / colours.
Police feel the need to stop someone (for what ever reason), that someone doesn’t want to be stopped, a struggle (verbal/physical) ensues and the situation escalates.
Often a short period of cooperation by the MOP will see a whole lot of agro averted.
This applies to MOP of all types / colours.
Exige77 said:
One shouldn’t generalise in these cases but it very much looks like many cases follow the same pattern.
Police feel the need to stop someone (for what ever reason), that someone doesn’t want to be stopped, a struggle (verbal/physical) ensues and the situation escalates.
Often a short period of cooperation by the MOP will see a whole lot of agro averted.
This applies to MOP of all types / colours.
No argument Police feel the need to stop someone (for what ever reason), that someone doesn’t want to be stopped, a struggle (verbal/physical) ensues and the situation escalates.
Often a short period of cooperation by the MOP will see a whole lot of agro averted.
This applies to MOP of all types / colours.
biggbn said:
I do believe the video made (a policeman) look aggresive and intimidating and I am both surprised and disappointed that this has been described as standard practice in the Met, although, I say again, i have no problem with robust policing when required. I dont think its required for general arseyness and gobbiness
You're missing the point again. The officer intended to look "aggressive and intimidating" because the vehicle failed to stop (well, actually it did stop but then made off because they wanted to bait the police).This may surprise you but sometimes people behave like complete arses because they think it's hilarious to have a laugh at the police's expense.
Williams' little tale is a prime example of that. Unfortunately (for her) it backfired on her.
Regarding the "general arseyness and gobbiness" I agree - to a point.
However, the behaviour of this pair went beyond that.
andymadmak said:
In the week when we are hearing about what happened to PC Harper when he approached a car?
A police officer that's arrived to the scene of a suspected theft in the countryside of Royal Berkshire in the middle of the night is comparable to a van load of police officers stopping a car in Maida Vale in broad daylight? There are thousands of traffic stops that bear no comparison to either of those two situations.
Was the use of hand cuffs proportionate?
Were the use of hand cuffs a punishment? Is it the job of the police to issue punishments or is that the job of the courts?
If the use of hand cuffs wasn't proportionate and their use was to humiliate and/or punish Bianca Williams and Ricardo dos Santos where would that sit with the fundamental Human Rights mentioned on the Constable's Oath?
carinaman said:
Was the use of hand cuffs proportionate?
Were the use of hand cuffs a punishment? Is it the job of the police to issue punishments or is that the job of the courts?
If the use of hand cuffs wasn't proportionate and their use was to humiliate and/or punish Bianca Williams and Ricardo dos Santos where would that sit with the fundamental Human Rights mentioned on the Constable's Oath?
Lets look at it another way - you are a cop, you've stopped two young fit looking people, they made off once in the car, you stop them a second time, you don't cuff them and they run off.Were the use of hand cuffs a punishment? Is it the job of the police to issue punishments or is that the job of the courts?
If the use of hand cuffs wasn't proportionate and their use was to humiliate and/or punish Bianca Williams and Ricardo dos Santos where would that sit with the fundamental Human Rights mentioned on the Constable's Oath?
I'm your senior officer and I ask you - why they hell didn't you cuff them after they'd already made off once ?
What's your reply ?
carinaman said:
A police officer that's arrived to the scene of a suspected theft in the countryside of Royal Berkshire in the middle of the night is comparable to a van load of police officers stopping a car in Maida Vale in broad daylight?
It's comparable because both vehicles failed to stop/ made off.Unfortunately, police officers are not currently issued with a crystal ball nor do they have the psychic abilities of Mystic Meg in order to assertain what is going on in the drivers'/ occupants mind.
You've seen how stuff can go badly wrong. In these circumstances (a vehicle failing to stop) can you really blame the officers for dealing with the occupants in the manner they did ?
Edited by Red 4 on Thursday 9th July 11:47
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