Sir Ed Davey - Lib. Dem Leader
Discussion
pequod said:
MC Bodge said:
PR cannot come soon enough.
New Zealand managed to make the switch from the UK style FPTP. It can happen.
The various parties might split, although they might not, and we would find a new equilibrium.
New Zealand managed to make the switch from the UK style FPTP. It can happen.
The various parties might split, although they might not, and we would find a new equilibrium.
NZ has a population of 5 million or so, living in a remote land far removed from influence or the consequences of whatever system of Govt they choose. Not comparable, I'm afraid...
Why on earth turn this thread weird??
Germany is very different, it’s a Federal system and the individual states are rather substantial entities.
Switzerland is even more different again. Both are lovely places to though, however, I would strongly suggest that those who argue for Switzerland go and live there for a while. You may find you change your mind after a while. Some of you won’t, most Brits will though.
AbzMike…it’s not just the Tory party, it’s the whole country. I lived n worked abroad for most of that decade, pre and post Brexit. Much of it in the above 2 countries actually, with flying visits back to UK. When I came back fully I v much remember stumbling round in a daze for a cpl of months, frequently asking my wife wtf had happened to the place - the country seemed absolutely nuts compared to the UK I had last lived in. We, the country, have engaged in a monumental bout of navel gazing over the last decade, bickering and general internal whingeing. No country ever benefits from that. I don’t dispute that the Tory party have largely lead that, but the rest of the place has just followed their lead
Germany is very different, it’s a Federal system and the individual states are rather substantial entities.
Switzerland is even more different again. Both are lovely places to though, however, I would strongly suggest that those who argue for Switzerland go and live there for a while. You may find you change your mind after a while. Some of you won’t, most Brits will though.
AbzMike…it’s not just the Tory party, it’s the whole country. I lived n worked abroad for most of that decade, pre and post Brexit. Much of it in the above 2 countries actually, with flying visits back to UK. When I came back fully I v much remember stumbling round in a daze for a cpl of months, frequently asking my wife wtf had happened to the place - the country seemed absolutely nuts compared to the UK I had last lived in. We, the country, have engaged in a monumental bout of navel gazing over the last decade, bickering and general internal whingeing. No country ever benefits from that. I don’t dispute that the Tory party have largely lead that, but the rest of the place has just followed their lead
OutInTheShed said:
anonymoususer said:
This is the Ed Davey thread. It's a thread about Ed Davey. The man and his abilities
Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Ed Who?Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Apologies for derailing an important topic.
I missed PMQ's today, due to a landslide! No, not that, what Sir Ed would like, but an actual mud slippage caused by the Tory's (!) and no mistake.
Anyhow, are the LibDems on the verge of controlling the next Govt, Labour obs?
pequod said:
OutInTheShed said:
anonymoususer said:
This is the Ed Davey thread. It's a thread about Ed Davey. The man and his abilities
Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Ed Who?Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Apologies for derailing an important topic.
I missed PMQ's today, due to a landslide! No, not that, what Sir Ed would like, but an actual mud slippage caused by the Tory's (!) and no mistake.
Anyhow, are the LibDems on the verge of controlling the next Govt, Labour obs?
There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
Diderot said:
You make a very important point. PR is a system that invariably leads to unstable coalitions where the 3rd or 4th party that polls fewer numbers of votes than the majority parties holds the balance of power, and that is, of course, fundamentally undemocratic. In the UK, we’d have the lib dims, aided and abetted by the Greens, and other fringe nutters, steering the rudder at every moment because they knew they could topple the house of cards at any moment . We had a very small taste of it with the Call Me Dave and Call Me Nick coalition.
There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
The LDs like the sound of PR because they think it would make them very powerful.There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
What they don't realise is that if we had PR, a) people would vote differently and b) wannabe politicians would have a wider choice of party to join.
Diderot said:
You make a very important point. PR is a system that invariably leads to unstable coalitions where the 3rd or 4th party that polls fewer numbers of votes than the majority parties holds the balance of power, and that is, of course, fundamentally undemocratic. In the UK, we’d have the lib dims, aided and abetted by the Greens, and other fringe nutters, steering the rudder at every moment because they knew they could topple the house of cards at any moment . We had a very small taste of it with the Call Me Dave and Call Me Nick coalition.
There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
Right; challenge accepted. There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland have party-based PR. Ireland and Malta have single transferrable vote. Germany and Hungary have mixed member PR. Andorra, Italy, Lithuania, North Macedonia, and Ukraine have parallel voting. Are they all rubbish? Are just some of them? What's the proportion?
We have at the moment a system where the right of the tory party steers it. We have seen law after law passed that are extreme. Back in Blair's day - where does one start? I'd certainly swap some of the governments of the 40 countries above. Some I would not.
We have a fine exemplar of how dreadful the FPTP system can be. Just open the door.
Derek Smith said:
Diderot said:
You make a very important point. PR is a system that invariably leads to unstable coalitions where the 3rd or 4th party that polls fewer numbers of votes than the majority parties holds the balance of power, and that is, of course, fundamentally undemocratic. In the UK, we’d have the lib dims, aided and abetted by the Greens, and other fringe nutters, steering the rudder at every moment because they knew they could topple the house of cards at any moment . We had a very small taste of it with the Call Me Dave and Call Me Nick coalition.
There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
Right; challenge accepted. There are exemplars currently globally (and historically) which amply demonstrate why we should not touch PR with a barge pole.
Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland have party-based PR. Ireland and Malta have single transferrable vote. Germany and Hungary have mixed member PR. Andorra, Italy, Lithuania, North Macedonia, and Ukraine have parallel voting. Are they all rubbish? Are just some of them? What's the proportion?
We have at the moment a system where the right of the tory party steers it. We have seen law after law passed that are extreme. Back in Blair's day - where does one start? I'd certainly swap some of the governments of the 40 countries above. Some I would not.
We have a fine exemplar of how dreadful the FPTP system can be. Just open the door.
I don't have the data however, if we just ran the latest elections on that basis, how would the results differ?
pequod said:
Could we test PR on the next round of local elections to elicit opinions from the electorate?
I don't have the data however, if we just ran the latest elections on that basis, how would the results differ?
I'm not sure one can. It would be no better than guesswork as people voted knowing it was FPTP.I don't have the data however, if we just ran the latest elections on that basis, how would the results differ?
Our system worked well enough for years, certainly post war. There was consensus politics more or less, with the extremes of each party rather side-lined, but with Blair and Johnson achieving vast majorities, the faults were exposed, with presidential-style government.
If we had elections for presidents, the rather scary thing is that Blair and Johnson both would have probably been voted in despite their patently obvious unsuitability for the role.
The tory/LD government wasn't too bad, certainly not compared to those around it.
Whatever, the next election results might well give us a government of middle ground, reflecting the beliefs of the majority, and the weird extremes left to lick their wounds. I hope the tories aren't routed because, if they are, the party will revert to their old style of infighting all the time, and making themselves unelectable. We need a credible opposition.
Sunak might, despite his vast riches, have made a half-decent PM, but he's got Braverman. He's got weirdos who catch the camera. He's got inflation. He's got the brexit fallout. There's no way he can show his true potential as he has no freedom of movement. He goes on about stopping the boats, he supports sending refugees and asylum seekers to a country with iffy human rights records. Iffy only in the sense of just how dreadful is the place. But Sunak needs to keep the right in place. Some of the red wall MPs talk sense, but we'll see most of them dumped I think. He'll be left with the same old same old.
Derek Smith said:
Right; challenge accepted.
Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland have party-based PR. Ireland and Malta have single transferrable vote. Germany and Hungary have mixed member PR. Andorra, Italy, Lithuania, North Macedonia, and Ukraine have parallel voting. Are they all rubbish? Are just some of them? What's the proportion?
We have at the moment a system where the right of the tory party steers it. We have seen law after law passed that are extreme. Back in Blair's day - where does one start? I'd certainly swap some of the governments of the 40 countries above. Some I would not.
We have a fine exemplar of how dreadful the FPTP system can be. Just open the door.
Well said. Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Moldova, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland have party-based PR. Ireland and Malta have single transferrable vote. Germany and Hungary have mixed member PR. Andorra, Italy, Lithuania, North Macedonia, and Ukraine have parallel voting. Are they all rubbish? Are just some of them? What's the proportion?
We have at the moment a system where the right of the tory party steers it. We have seen law after law passed that are extreme. Back in Blair's day - where does one start? I'd certainly swap some of the governments of the 40 countries above. Some I would not.
We have a fine exemplar of how dreadful the FPTP system can be. Just open the door.
Derek Smith said:
Sunak might, despite his vast riches, have made a half-decent PM, but he's got Braverman. He's got weirdos who catch the camera. He's got inflation. He's got the brexit fallout.
Does anybody, anybody at all, rate Braverman?FPTP is not working for our country. Outside of PH, is anybody happy with the system and the shambolic government we have had for the past decade?
OutInTheShed said:
The LDs like the sound of PR because they think it would make them very powerful.
What they don't realise is that if we had PR, a) people would vote differently and b) wannabe politicians would have a wider choice of party to join.
It may or may not help. The LDs, but we really should make the change. What they don't realise is that if we had PR, a) people would vote differently and b) wannabe politicians would have a wider choice of party to join.
MC Bodge said:
FPTP is not working for our country. Outside of PH, is anybody happy with the system and the shambolic government we have had for the past decade?
I'd imagine Labour supporters aren't.For the most part I don't think the country's political issues are down to FPTP. Switching to PR wouldn't get rid of the inept f
kwits, it would just put more of them around the top table.
Oliver Hardy said:
Was there not a referendum 10 years or so ago for AV and hardly anyone voted in it and these that did voted against bringing it in?
Tories and Labour didn't want it (because FPTP suits Tories, it mostly keeps Labour as the main opposition, and Labour wanted to prevent the Lib Dems getting it through ) and the press didn't get behind it.The current FPTP system is extremely out-dated, and helps to continue some of the UK's problems (and delusions).
OutInTheShed said:
The LDs like the sound of PR because they think it would make them very powerful.
What they don't realise is that if we had PR, a) people would vote differently and b) wannabe politicians would have a wider choice of party to join.
YepWhat they don't realise is that if we had PR, a) people would vote differently and b) wannabe politicians would have a wider choice of party to join.
FPTP entrenches the old establishment parties.
OutInTheShed said:
The LDs like the sound of PR because they think it would make them very powerful.
...
...
Political self-interest, bad at individual politician level but far worse at Party level, and like legislative constipation it should be avoided.
Having a camel as a racehorse, doomed from the off.
pequod said:
OutInTheShed said:
anonymoususer said:
This is the Ed Davey thread. It's a thread about Ed Davey. The man and his abilities
Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Ed Who?Waffling on about New Zealand is just off topic tittle tattle.
Ed Davey is a major political figure and I for one respect that.
Apologies for derailing an important topic.
I missed PMQ's today, due to a landslide! No, not that, what Sir Ed would like, but an actual mud slippage caused by the Tory's (!) and no mistake.
Anyhow, are the LibDems on the verge of controlling the next Govt, Labour obs?
I dont like being bossy but when it's Ed Davey it's important stuff. Ed's going to be very important soon. He will be holding the balance of power and that will make him de facto the most important politician in the world.
Ed's a good guy very principled and soon every one will appreciate him for the things he does. He is one of the cleanest politico's the UK has ever had. You won't find scandal in his past, you won't find unpleasant episodes from his past such as those that did for his predecessor - Jo "slingshot" Swinson.
Great things were hoped for from Jo and she led the party through 144 magnificent days. These 144 days are regarded by seasoned political journalists and insiders as the "Golden Days" of Lib Dem history.
Ed has followed a more traditional path of pragmatism and rebuilding.
Let's wish him well and hope he has golden years rather than days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApHM1ct4tdM
Edited by anonymoususer on Thursday 11th May 08:17
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