CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)

[i4got]

pocty said:

1. I said workable.

2. Are these the same people who said that we would have a vaccine by Summer and then September and then January and now (feel free to fill in the blank space ( ).

3. I suggest you read this while your waiting for the vaccine
https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/10/10/a-sars-co...

Pocty

1. So did she.
2. No idea. I think they've said before there was a slim chance of a virus this year.
3. Guess people believe who they want to believe (and who supports their particular viewpoint). I don't know who's right but I'd expect the head of the Vaccine Task Force to have more information to hand, than a self described "sceptic" GP from Macclesfield.

[anonymous-user]

i4got said:

1. So did she.
2. No idea. I think they've said before there was a slim chance of a virus this year.
3. Guess people believe who they want to believe (and who supports their particular viewpoint). I don't know who's right but I'd expect the head of the Vaccine Task Force to have more information to hand, than a self described "sceptic" GP from Macclesfield.

I’d expect the head of the vaccine task force to be no more than a puppet, espousing whatever they are told to.

[markyb_lcy]

monkfish1 said:

grumbledoak said:

Khan has been speaking
https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1316720261320...

Apparently this is "to avert the possibility of a full lockdown lasting months".

After they spout this drivel, when will a journolist be man enough to say "what happens after this" . "what happens next"

It really is painful that not a single journalist has asked this pretty fundamental question. It should be staring them in the face considering we are talking about doing now more-or-less what we did 6 months ago.

[gareth_r]

i4got said:

pocty said:

1. I said workable.

2. Are these the same people who said that we would have a vaccine by Summer and then September and then January and now (feel free to fill in the blank space ( ).

3. I suggest you read this while your waiting for the vaccine
https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/10/10/a-sars-co...

Pocty

1. So did she.
2. No idea. I think they've said before there was a slim chance of a virus this year.
3. Guess people believe who they want to believe (and who supports their particular viewpoint). I don't know who's right but I'd expect the head of the Vaccine Task Force to have more information to hand, than a self described "sceptic" GP from Macclesfield.

What is the estimated study end date for the AstraZeneca vaccine?

[i4got]

gareth_r said:

What is the estimated study end date for the AstraZeneca vaccine?

Year end I think from what being reported.

[gareth_r]

i4got said:

gareth_r said:

What is the estimated study end date for the AstraZeneca vaccine?

Year end I think from what being reported.

Which year?


https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746

[anonymous-user]

Anyone got any sniper rifles, automatics, grenades etc?

I’m feeling all Falling Down Michael Douglas this evening.

[i4got]

gareth_r said:

Which year?


https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746

Well as I've admitted I'm not an expert in producing vaccines. Your document shows the end date as 2nd December 2020 and that seems to match with all the google results from a search asking "study end date for the AstraZeneca vaccine"

They key point to take from this is I have no inside knowledge - I just pasted a BBC interview with the head of the UK vaccine task force. I didn't expect that there would be so many virology experts on here who seem to have access to more accurate information than her.

[Elysium]

Graveworm said:

He didn't disagree with the papers, he disagreed with what you would like them to say. There will almost certainly never be strong evidence for most of this as randomised controlled studies are pretty much impossible. He disagreed with Professor Heneghan as does most of the scientific and medical community. Including another professor from his own university who literally wrote the text book on evidence based medicine, who is advocating practice based medicine for this pandemic.

Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 15th October 18:48

So you have nothing else then - just an attempt to argue that ‘weak’ means something else and falling back on a flawed argument based on a logical fallacy.

There was a time when Einstein was the only person who believed in relativity, when Watson and Crick were in the minority over DNA and when people thought Darwin was blasphemous on evolution.

The majority of scientists used to believe the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the world.

The majority is not always right.

[pocty]

i4got said:

gareth_r said:

Which year?


https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746

Well as I've admitted I'm not an expert in producing vaccines. Your document shows the end date as 2nd December 2020 and that seems to match with all the google results from a search asking "study end date for the AstraZeneca vaccine"

They key point to take from this is I have no inside knowledge - I just pasted a BBC interview with the head of the UK vaccine task force. I didn't expect that there would be so many virology experts on here who seem to have access to more accurate information than her.

So are you going to take the vaccine on 2nd December 2020 even though AstraZeneca after this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8843639...

Be my guest. Sorry to burst your bubble and such a shame that you've put all your money on Black 17.

Pocty

[monkfish1]

Elysium said:

Graveworm said:

He didn't disagree with the papers, he disagreed with what you would like them to say. There will almost certainly never be strong evidence for most of this as randomised controlled studies are pretty much impossible. He disagreed with Professor Heneghan as does most of the scientific and medical community. Including another professor from his own university who literally wrote the text book on evidence based medicine, who is advocating practice based medicine for this pandemic.

Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 15th October 18:48

So you have nothing else then - just an attempt to argue that ‘weak’ means something else and falling back on a flawed argument based on a logical fallacy.

There was a time when Einstein was the only person who believed in relativity, when Watson and Crick were in the minority over DNA and when people thought Darwin was blasphemous on evolution.

The majority of scientists used to believe the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the world.

The majority is not always right.

And in time, proven not to be right.

Lets be honest, unlike the people you mention above who were hard up against it, its not difficult to see. 6 months on their is plenty of evidence. Just that its ignored.

[Graveworm]

Elysium said:

Graveworm said:

He didn't disagree with the papers, he disagreed with what you would like them to say. There will almost certainly never be strong evidence for most of this as randomised controlled studies are pretty much impossible. He disagreed with Professor Heneghan as does most of the scientific and medical community. Including another professor from his own university who literally wrote the text book on evidence based medicine, who is advocating practice based medicine for this pandemic.

Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 15th October 18:48

So you have nothing else then - just an attempt to argue that ‘weak’ means something else and falling back on a flawed argument based on a logical fallacy.

There was a time when Einstein was the only person who believed in relativity, when Watson and Crick were in the minority over DNA and when people thought Darwin was blasphemous on evolution.

The majority of scientists used to believe the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the world.

The majority is not always right.

Your logical fallacy is the majority are not always right so they are more likely to be wrong. They are usually right.
The minority scientists, who are opposed are doing so without submitting to scientific rigor and not actually gathering any evidence or conducting any studies themselves. They are just pointing out possible flaws in others work. Which in isolation is valid but as the body of evidence grows the consensus becomes more and more compelling.

[BlackTails]

Elysium said:

So you have nothing else then - just an attempt to argue that ‘weak’ means something else and falling back on a flawed argument based on a logical fallacy.

There was a time when Einstein was the only person who believed in relativity, when Watson and Crick were in the minority over DNA and when people thought Darwin was blasphemous on evolution.

The majority of scientists used to believe the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the world.

The majority is not always right.

This is becoming very hard to follow.

Today you have compared favourably your dishonesty about complying with some covid-related laws to do with meeting people indoors with those genuinely heroic people who risked their lives by lying to the Nazis about protecting Anne Frank.

Now you are comparing your insight favourably with that of Einstein, Crick & Watson and Darwin.

Whereas in reality (squint into the far distance, and you might just be able to make it out) you're a rather unhealthily obsessed bloke with a hobby horse, a liking for graphs, an excess of pomposity and self-regard, and a keyboard.

Somehow, I doubt that "Elysium" will go down as one of history's great and revered thinkers.

But please, do crack on. Your fanbase needs you.

[monkfish1]

Graveworm said:

Elysium said:

Graveworm said:

He didn't disagree with the papers, he disagreed with what you would like them to say. There will almost certainly never be strong evidence for most of this as randomised controlled studies are pretty much impossible. He disagreed with Professor Heneghan as does most of the scientific and medical community. Including another professor from his own university who literally wrote the text book on evidence based medicine, who is advocating practice based medicine for this pandemic.

Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 15th October 18:48

So you have nothing else then - just an attempt to argue that ‘weak’ means something else and falling back on a flawed argument based on a logical fallacy.

There was a time when Einstein was the only person who believed in relativity, when Watson and Crick were in the minority over DNA and when people thought Darwin was blasphemous on evolution.

The majority of scientists used to believe the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the world.

The majority is not always right.

Your logical fallacy is the majority are not always right so they are more likely to be wrong. They are usually right.
The minority scientists, who are opposed are doing so without submitting to scientific rigor and not actually gathering any evidence or conducting any studies themselves. They are just pointing out possible flaws in others work. Which in isolation is valid but as the body of evidence grows the consensus becomes more and more compelling.

All in good time. Realisation doesnt happen quickly. Which is a pity given the extreme harms being caused in the meantime. In 10 years time people will look back and wonder what the hell happened!

[J4CKO]

ant leigh said:

OddCat said:

I mused a hypothetical situation where everyone spent what they would have done regardless of not getting a service. Example: I go and give my local take away £20 even though I'm not having a take away type thing. So we all 'spend' the same amount we previously did. Therefore no businesses go bust because their income continues as it was / would have been. But instead the billions that aren't being spent are being saved.

Nice thought, good luck getting those few individuals who have made fortunes due to the pandemic handing it all out to the many losers,

Indeed, I get the impression that there are a lot of people with a hell of a lot more disposable income and are disposing of it on hobbies and stuff.

I know someone who is systematically buying every single Tamiya remote control car and various upgrades and add ons. This is someone who already had some debt that he hasnt paid off and hadnt been in a new job very long.

I am all for buying the odd treat to relieve the boredom, keep money flowing round the economy but a little bit of circumspection as the real economic implications havent been felt yet.

My own job feels secure but it is only ever an impression, might be time to ease off on the gadgets, bike, consoles and other stuff and get a bit of a float together if you dont already have one.

Its easy to feel comfortable but things can all turn to ratst in a day, at which point spending four grand on a bike will feel a bit daft when you cant meet your bills/mortgage. If you are bored and looking for stuff to buy, find something else to do.

All depends on a lot of factors but this felt like it was easing but at the moment its getting worse again, dont meant to be doom and gloom but it feels like things are going to get tricky.

[monkfish1]

J4CKO said:

ant leigh said:

OddCat said:

I mused a hypothetical situation where everyone spent what they would have done regardless of not getting a service. Example: I go and give my local take away £20 even though I'm not having a take away type thing. So we all 'spend' the same amount we previously did. Therefore no businesses go bust because their income continues as it was / would have been. But instead the billions that aren't being spent are being saved.

Nice thought, good luck getting those few individuals who have made fortunes due to the pandemic handing it all out to the many losers,

Indeed, I get the impression that there are a lot of people with a hell of a lot more disposable income and are disposing of it on hobbies and stuff.

I know someone who is systematically buying every single Tamiya remote control car and various upgrades and add ons. This is someone who already had some debt that he hasnt paid off and hadnt been in a new job very long.

I am all for buying the odd treat to relieve the boredom, keep money flowing round the economy but a little bit of circumspection as the real economic implications havent been felt yet.

My own job feels secure but it is only ever an impression, might be time to ease off on the gadgets, bike, consoles and other stuff and get a bit of a float together.

Its easy to feel comfortable but things can all turn to ratst in a day, at which point spending four grand on a bike will feel a bit daft when you cant meet your bills/mortgage. If you are bored and looking for stuff to buy, find something else to do.

All depends on a lot of factors but this felt like it was easing but at the moment its getting worse again, dont meant to be doom and gloom but it feels like things are going to get tricky.

Economically, its just getting started. Ive said before, i think anyone spending big on non essential stuff is either daft, retired or public sector. Which i guess is a majority?

[worsy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct...

Barrington Declaration criticism.

[i4got]

pocty said:

So are you going to take the vaccine on 2nd December 2020 even though AstraZeneca after this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8843639...

Be my guest. Sorry to burst your bubble and such a shame that you've put all your money on Black 17.

Pocty

I'm don't know when the vaccine will be out. Despite your protestations neither do you. I've not put my money on anything - not sure why you'd think so. And I have no bubble to burst.

I thought it was worthwhile countering your "I've a feeling in my water that there won't be a vaccine until 2023" with an alternate view from those who should know. Do you think that in offering that alternate view, I should be prepared to fight to the death to support that view?

Whether it's 2020 or 2023 time will tell.

[Not-The-Messiah]

markyb_lcy said:

monkfish1 said:

grumbledoak said:

Khan has been speaking
https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1316720261320...

Apparently this is "to avert the possibility of a full lockdown lasting months".

After they spout this drivel, when will a journolist be man enough to say "what happens after this" . "what happens next"

It really is painful that not a single journalist has asked this pretty fundamental question. It should be staring them in the face considering we are talking about doing now more-or-less what we did 6 months ago.

The bullst answer they give is "It will give us time to get on top of the virus and sort out track and trace" That thing we have chucked billions at and had weeks to sort out but somehow a couple more weeks will magically sort it all out.

The reporters need to ask what is the likelihood of a system working when it relies on people having symptoms and people getting tested when needed (lots of people don't in both cases) meaning it doomed from the start.

There are far to many people in dream world about track and trace and need to snap out of it.

[pocty]

i4got said:

pocty said:

So are you going to take the vaccine on 2nd December 2020 even though AstraZeneca after this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8843639...

Be my guest. Sorry to burst your bubble and such a shame that you've put all your money on Black 17.

Pocty

I'm don't know when the vaccine will be out. Despite your protestations neither do you. I've not put my money on anything - not sure why you'd think so. And I have no bubble to burst.

I thought it was worthwhile countering your "I've a feeling in my water that there won't be a vaccine until 2023" with an alternate view from those who should know. Do you think that in offering that alternate view, I should be prepared to fight to the death to support that view?

Whether it's 2020 or 2023 time will tell.

I had a feeling based on the fact that the trails are all pointing to a few years and then I supported the fact with evidence, https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/10/10/a-sars-co...

You on the other hand, just sent me a BBC news article. if your that gullible then be the first in line.

Riddle me this with all the mishaps producing the vaccine as I have clearly pointed out, will you still take it if its released in a months time.

Pocty